Do the post Decade Riders suck?

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Do the post Decade Riders suck?

Post by Ashki »

takenoko wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:22 pm Did people not like Drive? As meandering as it was, the goodness of its characters (minus Mach) really made up for its shortcomings for me (unlike Build where the goodness of its characters was its only saving grace from its story for me XD)
Build could have been far worse (just look at Zi-O), but Drive definitely had a lot of problems that pulled it down, with only a few saving graces. I don't speak for everyone, but here was what I personally got out of the show:

The Good
1. Chase - Pretty much the only character I really liked in the show. It was pretty sad that the one character who was supposed to have no emotions happened to also be the only one with a personality. He's what got me through to the final arc.

2. The villains - I really love it when a show develops the characters from all sides, and that goes a long way towards my being able to like a show. In terms of Drive, Chase started off as an interesting (if cliche) villain, then switched sides. Brain had a lot of potential but was never developed. But in the final arc, you actually FEEL for the the villains. It was too little too late, but I have to give them some credit for making viewers want to side with the "bad guys" right before they're literally rendered extinct.

3. I love detective themes. Agito was my first full Rider series, so I was happy that the show was formatted to be a detective series, although they didn't do it nearly as well as Agito or W.

The Bad
1. Krim Steinbelt - It's kind of interesting that they did a play on the popular tech brand Klim (I'm using a Klim keyboard now, in fact), paired with Frankenstein to come up with his name. The design of the driver was obviously meant for younger kids and reminded me a bit of Buddy Phones. But it started a trend of referring to Drivers as belts and Belt-san got pretty annoying at times with his cheap car sound reactions. Kiva did much better with the live Driver idea, and I think Krim should have been thought out better.

2. The car theme just didn't really work for a motorcycle-centric franchise and while I understand why they did it, the entire point fell apart when EVERY OTHER RIDER ended up with (or becoming) a Mashin. Perhaps if they'd gone all the way, Tridoron wouldn't have felt so out of place and useless.

The Ugly
1. Accel literally existed because of an in-joke left over from Kabuto. They did a much better take on the Rider = Mashin in Ex-Aid, right down to the serious/gloomy personality. Between Accel and Mach, the secondary riders were mostly just annoying.

2. The Cast - The majority of the cast had zero personality or depth, and the few they wanted to have "personality" ended up just being annoying (like Mach). In the end, it was the first series outside of Hibiki I wanted to walk away from, and I ONLY pushed myself through because of Chase. In fact, Chase is also pretty much the only thing that made it better than Ghost.

3. Plot Whiplash - I'm a professional writer. It's what I do, it pays my rent, and it's a lifelong passion. When I watch Kamen Rider, I usually just sit back and enjoy it for what it is - a kid's show. But Drive went beyond the normal flaws of a kid's series, and I think Zi-O's biggest downfall was that it tried to beat out Drive for the number of unnecessary plot twists and self-retcons. I remember a lot of the complaints in the threads during that series were how a major reveal would almost always be retconned within a couple episodes. Those changes for the sake of change often broke immersion in ways that make Saber look like a masterpiece.



Now, I know some people absolutely loved Drive, but it shared most of the problems that made Hibiki and Ghost so terrible without the excuse of losing its writers. It tried to overcomplicate things, failed to bring any depth to the cast, relied heavily on a Rider theme that was basically ignored by the rest of the Riders so Drive ended up looking like he was guest-starring in his own show, ended the series by making the good guys turn out to be the bad guys and making you sympathise completely with Heart and his mission... I can give a lot of excuses for Kamen Rider, but having seen much of the Showa Era at this point as well as all of Heisei to present (Hibiki's the only KR series I gave up on partway through), Drive just missed the mark way too often.

There are some things that weren't bad, and I'd probably sit through it again if REALLY bored, but a lot of us didn't like Drive for these (and other) reasons. And unlike Ghost, I wouldn't be interested in seeing the cast brought back for a remake, because I can't pretend the shoddy writing and acting was due to staffing issues. At least the Ghost cast gave it their all for as long as they could before they visibly gave up.
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Drive Tangent

Post by takenoko »

Yeah, I guess your'e right, in that most of the best Drive characters are just the Roidmude. But even if not the best, I did always have affection for all the Drive pit team, even if I couldn't really put my finger on why. Actually, I did like Kiriko a lot, and wish she and her kicking boots were used more

And I like Sanjou Riku as a writer. Yeah, I couldn't tell you what the plot to Drive was, but it felt like a fun time. It wasn't like Ex-Aid, Build, and Zi-O where I was just chewing my arm off because I couldn't stand some of the subplots sometimes

Also, Nira Mitsuhide is a totally underrated villain. What an entertaining dick that guy was
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Re: KR Saber 12 released

Post by Catastrophe »

Drive has two main problems.

1) It followed Gaim
2) It's a detective/investigative themed Kamen Rider. It didn't feel fresh enough coming from W. The Roidmudes were cool though.
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Re: KR Saber 12 released

Post by TheNinjaDragon »

Geez, almost sounds like you guys hate Heisei Phase 2 of Kamen Rider.
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Re: KR Saber 12 released

Post by Mandalori »

Yes, they do, because of the "it's was better before" filter. We always think we are seeing things objectively but we never are. What make us slightly less subjective is is the information we have. It's quantity, quality and the credibility we give it.
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Re: KR Saber 12 released

Post by takenoko »

I wouldn't say I hate late Heisei stuff, but it definitely feels like there was a shakeup in Toei where a lot of experienced writers are no longer doing year long shows.

Gaim: The amazing Urubutcher
Drive: Sanjou Riku who's done anime and manga, also wrote all of Kyouryuuger and half of W

Then we have Ghost, who's the same main writer as Saber...

Then we have Ex-Aid who's Takahashi Yuya who also wrote half of Zi-O

Muto Shogo who wrote Build, who previously wrote one quarter dramas 11-13 episodes typically. It feels like he didn't know how to write a year long show

Zi-O who has Shimoyama Kento and Mouri Nobuhiro who mostly wrote filler or comedy bits previously

Part of it could be Toei going both experimental with these new voices and also a bit more amateur with guys who don't have the veteran writing experience like Sanjou, Kobayashi, or even an Inoue. Whether you love them or not, Ghost through Zi-O have some really rough stories and characterizations, which has almost a direct correlation with the writers involved
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Re: KR Saber 12 released

Post by Catastrophe »

Post Decade Rider is just as good as pre-Decade rider. It has just as many good shows, just as many passable shows and just as many duds.

The problem I find is that Rider fans are able to overlook serious flaws that a series has if they like it for whatever reason. People have been doing it since Faiz and Kabuto. It's nothing new.

To piggyback off what Take said, from W the head writers were typically veteran writers, but not Toku writers. Sanjo and Urobuchi are the standouts. Fourze was done by Nakashima, who did Gurren Lagan.

Then you look at Wizard, who was done by the guy who did the first half of Hibiki before they retooled. And some of the other comparisons that Take mentioned. They keep giving a second series to writers that screwed the pooch the first time around.
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Re: KR Saber 12 released

Post by takenoko »

Huh, it's weird that Kida was considered a main writer for Hibiki considering he only wrote 15 of the episodes. Maybe co-writer? And why give it to Inoue considering he was in his post Faiz phase?

Didn't know Fourze was also an anime writer

Obviously I don't love all the first 10 Riders, I just outright dislike Faiz and Kiva. But it feels like I had more trust earlier in Heisei? Like I could watch an episode without going "What the heck?" for one reason or another. Or at least something fun or interesting would happen. Like Ryuki doesn't have a great ending, but what a fun ride it was to get there

Whereas the first 10 episodes of Saber feels like I'm pulling out a tooth to get a chance to go on the roller coaster for one ride. We'd be less likely to complain about the narrator or nitpick the story if there were better jokes and cooler action moments to fill the time
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Re: KR Saber 12 released

Post by Catastrophe »

It is interesting, because if you go back and look at the first 10, I don't think you'll find a consensus agreement on what the 'good' and the 'bad' ones are. I'd actually make the case you'd have an easier time finding a consensus post Decade. In the end, it is a long running franchise with a number of entries with different themes, and different things resonate with different people. Faiz and Kabuto are by no means excellent, but have interesting characters and great action set pieces. Saber has none of these. Neither did Ghost.
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Re: Do the post Decade Riders suck?

Post by kikaida »

The "good" neo/phase 2 heisei riders IMHO are: W, OOO, Gaim, and Build. The main issue I have with many of neo/phase 2 heisei riders is they are just too gimmicky (and my 4 "good ones" are no exception). Just think about their belts and all of the forms . . . instead of story driven we have toy driven. Am I fan - you bet. Do I watch them all - you bet. I will admit though, I am finding it hard to watch Saber.
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Re: Do the post Decade Riders suck?

Post by rubius »

honestly i liked them all but fourze was kinda weird since losing 1 friend could disable cosmic form, in ghost we never see him use sanzo, but zi-o really made them cool
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Re: Do the post Decade Riders suck?

Post by pika2000 »

I like them. At least they are trying to make the series and the movies more connected and consistent, unlike the pre-Decade where it was all over the place. Also, they learned a thing or two by keeping the actors in contact to appear a year or two later for fan service, something that Decade screwed up.

My personal top favorites are W and Drive.
Fourze, Gaim, Ex-Aid, and Zi-O are good (yup, I did enjoy Zi-O).
OOO and Wizard were alright.
Ghost was meh.
Build.. I couldn't even finish it. The OP Theme song "Be The One" was my favorite, but I just couldn't follow the series. I was just lost.

And yes, I do agree they are simply too focused on toys, to the point that there are too many rider forms that don't even get much screen time. It's like what's the point? This is why I appreciate the more dorama-like story like W and Drive to help balance things out with the overly toy focussed gimmicks.
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Re: Do the post Decade Riders suck?

Post by Hanadi Sensei »

It all comes down to personal preferences.
Like, how much I love Japanese Detective dramas, so W and Drive are on my top list.
Build could have been better, I mean, it's soooooo good on the first quarter of the series until most of the mysteries were revealed.
Neo-Heisei riders isn't really that bad. I think it gradually keeps our expectations high with each series and that did not really come to life.

Sometimes, I depend mainly on the casts/characters that made up the story. If those bunch fail to impress me (Hi Zio, I think Woz made me stay) I would have difficult time loving them and its story.
W, Drive, Fourze, Build has very likeable/memorable characters that made me want to look forward to seeing them again in the future. I guess that's my preference as to why I think Neo-Heisei is good enough for me.

Often times, there are just one or more interesting character in the series (Ex-AId's Gemn and Zio's Woz for example) which makes the series good enough to watch even if you hate it.
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Re: Do the post Decade Riders suck?

Post by decade368990 »

It's more like they're trying to avoid repeating Inoue Toshiki's chaotic writing on Faiz and Kiva. The more they boasted about they could achieve it, the less feasible the idea eventually turned out. Sanjou Riku did a good job with W. But for Fourze and Wizard, completely reusing what was established in W. Introducing a secondary Rider between Eps 16-20, killing off a good villain who's already a very threat to the Riders, a secondary villain takes over 10 middle episodes as filler, secondary characters are always taken hostages, and the final boss is just a sitting duck until the final 10 episodes. I don't particular mean to curse Fourze and Wizard, but they're examples of no breakthrough at all. The writers simply prefer grounding the characters back to their basics instead of doing something that's superior. It's just painful every week to bear over 30 minutes long if they kept using the same thing on every series until Zi-O.
pika2000 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:14 am I like them. At least they are trying to make the series and the movies more connected and consistent, unlike the pre-Decade where it was all over the place. Also, they learned a thing or two by keeping the actors in contact to appear a year or two later for fan service, something that Decade screwed up.
More connected and consistent never worked for Kuuga up to Kiva. It's rather maximum creativity in storytelling intentionally, so that writers like Inoue Toshiki could write something very provoking on Faiz or Arakawa Naruhisa could write something very humor to human hearts on Kuuga. Toei made a smart move by not interfering with writers' best ideas. Never ever think about taking per-cautious for future crossover continuity to limit the creativity of the writers. It's the only way the Heisei Rider trend survived until now.
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Re: Do the post Decade Riders suck?

Post by Aikawa »

I think, it's a lot more hit or miss between series. Arguably i'd say that if I were to rank all 23 series starting with Kuuga, and ending with Saber (and counting Amazons) I think I'd probably have about 6 of the Heisei era in the top 10, but, I think that some of the Neo Heisei ones that would squeak up into the top ten, would be ranked fairly highly. It's a lot of extremes. Extreme goods, extreme bads, great story, average story, good character development, iffy character development. The merits of shows also need to be looked at with their surrounding series. Drive and Kiva came after Gaim and Den-o, arguably some of the best series. Not everything can be a home run. It's about how much you like the characters, how much the characters grow as the story progresses, how good the story is, how easy or difficult it is to know what to expect the series to do in 2-4 episodes. Sometimes it's how quickly good characters are introduced and then removed (killed off, their two episode arc is over, whatever)

Just looking at responses in general for original heisei era riders, it's the same arguments, just with a bit less collectibles and forms, the gimmick is reduced a bit for the older series. But they also don't function as cohesively with less crossover movies, movies that aren't always canon, and everything feels so, stand alone ish. What I mean by that is that they hardly interact with each other, and most of them have plots where you'd expect past riders to come and help, or, to have interacted with during their time. Why hasn't Blade ever fought a Orphnoch, or, why didn't the Worms and Fangire fight with each other? Why is Faiz's movie noncanon but Blade's is? Looking at the Neo heisei era there are also parts of movies that invalidate them from being canon, but there are not only less of them, but more crossovers to weave the story of the riders together like protectors of neighboring cities. And several of the Neo Heisei era kaijin are new. Dopants, Yummy, Zodiarts, Phantoms, and the denizens of Helheim for example aren't like they've been around for years, they're new. there's no reason for past riders to have interacted with them before. but Orphonchs and Fangires? they're an entire species living in the shadows of humanity and some riders should have interacted with them.

What I'm getting at is, it's really all subjective, there are goods and bads for each show, some have more good than bad, some, have more bad than good. There are differences in the approaches of the Heisei and the Neo-Heisei, and it's all down to the individual on what parts they thing are worth focusing on.
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