Movie study about female roles

All them talking pictures
User avatar
takenoko
Team Baron
Team Baron
Posts: 30427
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:33 pm
Male: Yes
Favorite series: All of them
Alignment: Neutral
My boom: stick
Quote: "Are you the new monarch, or are you just a pawn of fate?" - Emerald Herald
Type: ISFJ Protector
Location: Yami ni umare, yami ni kisu
Contact:

Movie study about female roles

Post by takenoko »

http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/201 ... g-sexy.htm

Japanese movies are definitely no different. A lot of the women are just eye candy, even in these kid shows that we watch. Stuff like female Kamen Rider are rare still. Etc etc.
User avatar
DrowningFishy
Rank Gone due to timeline changes
Posts: 843
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:03 am
omg are u a girl?: Yes
Favorite series: Kamen Rider
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Quote: "Silly Kaijiu. Kicks are for Riders!" - hunter-urufu
Location: CA

Re: Movie study about female roles

Post by DrowningFishy »

"This is sending a powerful message that it's important for girls and young women to be sexual objects from a very early age," she says.
I do not know how true that quote is. Your more likely to dress how your peers dress and what stores deem is in fashion. However I do have room to be made to eat those words since look how many people want to think their vampires since twilight.

When you come right down to it, it all boils down to sterotypes. Though men are less "get in the kitchen and make me a sandwhich" woman are still seen as the weaker and fragile gender (and yes eye candy for you men).

If you ask me I have no issue with woman having the lesser roles since I like to watch movies for the male eye candy (if at all). That and so many woman now day (in America) are poor actors with annoying voices. Take the lead chic from Ninja Assasin I spent the whole movie skipping her parts because she was overly annoying!

And seriously, have you seen flicks which chics take the lead. ::groan::

PS: No one wants to see some old woman dressing sexy, though yes teens is going to young.

I wouldn't mind men dressing sexer and showing off more skin BTW. We need more of that.

PSS: As was told to me: Boys dream of being a super hero, not being the supporting role to a female.
User avatar
RickmanX
Complacent masses
Complacent masses
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:51 pm
Male: Yes
Favorite series: Den-O, Garo, Double
2nd Favorite Series: Faiz, Hibiki, OOO
Dreamy: Yuria Haga
Favorite Actor?: Takeru Satoh
Favorite Band: The Offspring
Alignment: Chaotic Good
My boom: Art
Quote: "We'll burn that bridge when we come to it..." said multiple times in the Myth Adventures series written by Robert Asprin
Location: Lurking the internets
Contact:

Re: Movie study about female roles

Post by RickmanX »

I don't think Hollywood has the brains to write a good female role, they've bought into their own terrible bullshit for to long now. Also anytime I have seen a female lead in an action movie, amusingly enough they've usually been the strong silent type...

I honestly want to see more female Kamen Riders, I remember watching Faiz and getting a bit of a laugh out of every time Mari tried to use the Faiz belt saying "Error Female!!!" damn sexist Faiz belt... ;P Personally I'd really love to see a female rider as the lead some day :/ but who knows if that'll ever happen...

And personally I don't want to see men in more "sexy outfits" or showing more skin but that's a personal preference thing~! ;3
Last edited by RickmanX on Tue May 03, 2011 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
DrowningFishy
Rank Gone due to timeline changes
Posts: 843
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:03 am
omg are u a girl?: Yes
Favorite series: Kamen Rider
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Quote: "Silly Kaijiu. Kicks are for Riders!" - hunter-urufu
Location: CA

Re: Movie study about female roles

Post by DrowningFishy »

RickmanX wrote: And personally I don't want to see men in more "sexy outfits" or showing more skin but that's a personal preference thing~! ;3
Yeah it was just a female moment on my end. Later it dawned on me a guy in "sexy outfit" probably be something A-Z's Luna would wear when not in the Never outfit. I think I would just be satisfied with guys loosing their shirts. XD
User avatar
Arigomi
Save the life
Posts: 2472
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:45 am
Male: Yes
Alignment: Chaotic Good
My boom: LEGO

Re: Movie study about female roles

Post by Arigomi »

DrowningFishy wrote: When you come right down to it, it all boils down to sterotypes. Though men are less "get in the kitchen and make me a sandwhich" woman are still seen as the weaker and fragile gender (and yes eye candy for you men).
Actually, a lot people these days can't stand characters (male or female) that are seen as weak or emotional. It's really sad since not everyone can be attractive, charming, confident, funny, smart, strong, and any other positive traits I've neglected.
User avatar
takenoko
Team Baron
Team Baron
Posts: 30427
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:33 pm
Male: Yes
Favorite series: All of them
Alignment: Neutral
My boom: stick
Quote: "Are you the new monarch, or are you just a pawn of fate?" - Emerald Herald
Type: ISFJ Protector
Location: Yami ni umare, yami ni kisu
Contact:

Re: Movie study about female roles

Post by takenoko »

Well it's more than just appearances and stereotypes. It can be as simple as asking if a character is a fully formed character in their own right. Does the female character have her own goals, personality, quirks, or does she just exist to look pretty, give birth, and die to create the Darth Vader character in Episode 3? (Not that any of the characters in the Star Wars prequels are interesting)

I've been meaning to take a look at female roles in toku for a while now. Besides the obvious eye candy, are they really given full characters or stories of their own? Like a great female character is Femme from Ryuki. She has her own goals, she's got her stealing money from guys thing going on, she even kind of has a character arc where meeting Shinji changes who she is. Then let's compare her to Megumi from ORE Journal who is just kind of a gag character and really doesn't do anything on her own.

Since toku is all about fighting evil, the ideal female characters would be ones who are fighting for their own reasons just like the guys in the shows. Like Sentai and the Rescue Force series did a pretty good job with female characters who pulled their own weight, kicking butt and being as important as the guys (although the RF girls don't really pilot the vehicles). Not to say that all girls need to fight, but let's look at Hina from OOO. She's got a personality and her goals and stuff, as well as monstrous strength, but she still needs saving from monsters from time to time. It'd be nice if girls didn't just exist for damsels in distress purposes.

I'm not saying that all shows everywhere need to hit every mark each time. Not every white male lead needs a black guy best friend just to avoid the show from being called racist. But I think it's important to keep these things in mind and to think about them from time to time.
User avatar
DrowningFishy
Rank Gone due to timeline changes
Posts: 843
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:03 am
omg are u a girl?: Yes
Favorite series: Kamen Rider
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Quote: "Silly Kaijiu. Kicks are for Riders!" - hunter-urufu
Location: CA

Re: Movie study about female roles

Post by DrowningFishy »

It was pointed out to me, and I can't help but to find this true, the only toku series in which woman actually take a strong role frequently is the Ultraman franchise (I don't think in those outfits you can find as much eye candy XD). There females are clearly seen as equal co-workers fighting just as well as the men. Though when it comes to henshining into Ultraman it is majority men. If I remeber it was Ace that had a shared role, and Justice was a chic (guess you can count a short bit in Nexus). Though the only female ultraman you see fight is Ultramother.

Men to female ratio still remains unequal.

Yes, woman can be strong in KR, but they seen as the supporting female. Other then movie verse we have yet to see a female KR, never mind a main role. Hahaha can you imagine a main female KR and a male as the supporting role (Why does this make me think of Cutey Honey).

As for Sentai, it's hard to see the stance on woman. You have the tomboyish chics, then you have the stero-typical females. Anyway you look at it Sentai does give you eye candy. Though personally out of KR and Sentai given a chic fight my money is on Sentai. Hands down Sentai wins for the power house of woman. I think having a female red, as small as the role was, was an awesome step forward.

Did anyone remeber the episode in Tomica in which males were turned into females can't remeber which of the two it was i havn't slept but for 3 hours in 29 hour time period. ::rubs her forehead:: Horrible, horrible sterotyping (but funny).

One thing I have noticed woman do have above men in toku is their brains. Woman have a tendicy to out think men in a lot of situations. Thankfully Japanese do not have many blondes.

To cut this shorter I guess when you look at it woman, as me being one and knowing a few others, don't want a woman to be in a guy role. It is like a guy in a woman's role it just does not work. What we need is to have a female role in which she plays her own role her own rules f*ck sterotypes. This is hard to do when your looking at series that have been around 35 plus years, and/or have writers that have wrote just as long. When they began female roles were still ingrained into society and there were still a lot of stay at home wives. Woman wern't always seen as independent as they are today.

It takes society a while to change think in 1979 the Convention of teh Elimination of All forms of Discrimination Against Woman was passed. Ultraman 1966, KR started in 1971, Sentai started soon afterwards. Thank about that fact carefully.

Link of the Convention
Spoiler
User avatar
jolly_old_saint
Faiz
Posts: 594
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:20 pm
Male: Yes
Favorite series: Gumby
2nd Favorite Series: Dengekibikifaizenger
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Contact:

Re: Movie study about female roles

Post by jolly_old_saint »

Arigomi wrote:Actually, a lot people these days can't stand characters (male or female) that are seen as weak or emotional. It's really sad since not everyone can be attractive, charming, confident, funny, smart, strong, and any other positive traits I've neglected.
The thing is....if you don't see an attractive aspect worth aspiring to, you aren't really looking at anything. A person with no positive traits is a void of despair that just saps life from a story. There's no sense in having someone like that.

...Also, everyone can be strong, if nothing else.

...Forgive me, I watch a lot of children's television.
DrowningFishy wrote: PS: No one wants to see some old woman dressing sexy, though yes teens is going to young.
PSS: As was told to me: Boys dream of being a super hero, not being the supporting role to a female.
I, for one, am willing to play a supporting role to an older woman dressing sexy.
RickmanX wrote:I don't think Hollywood has the brains to right
Ironic, innit.

There's a lot that factors into this subject, gender roles and all that...the thing is, this is television (and film) we're talking about. The end goal is to be successful and keep the medium afloat...at that, there have to be rules and boundaries for the audience, but squaring up male and female roles is both impossible and unreasonable for as long as there are more male writers than female in the entertainment industry...what I'm getting at is this itch is simply bound to be scratched for as long as it works. And so far it does work. But it working doesn't mean the fingernail community is encouraged to itch at every other little thing. The state of entertainment does not always encourage the state of society, reflect it though it might....or maybe I've lost myself....well, then, look at boxing. Or wrestling. Or any sport, actually...does it reflect a perfect society where everyone's an equal? No. Does it provide (relatively) harmless entertainment despite its flaws insofar as providing social education? You bet your ass it does. Plus its the parent's job to make sure their kid isn't a bigot anyhow.
User avatar
DrakosAmatras
Go Go!
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:12 pm
Male: Yes
Favorite series: Ryuki, GoGo, Geki
2nd Favorite Series: Den-O, Boken
Dreamy: Morita Suzuka
Alignment: Lawful Good
My boom: Buddhism
Quote: "I will die someday; it's only a matter of time."
Location: Oslo, Norway (Nationality: Burmese)

Re: Movie study about female roles

Post by DrakosAmatras »

It also depends on the writer (and its perception of females) as well. As TVTropes would put it: "Most writers are male". We do need more women writers. But also, ALL writers need to keep in mind to not give in to public perceptions and demands blindly, like "women today must be strong" or "we need a multi-national cast" (like Takenoko pointed out earlier), especially if doing so will impact your story balance in a negative way. Let writers write, people! Leave them alone!

As for complex female characters, I have an example, but it's not a live-action medium, so please bear with me: Has anybody seen the Witchblade Anime? Aside from the scanty battle outfits (unfortunately) carried over from the American comic version, it displays its female characters as very complex individuals with their own personalities, emotions and goals. I was surprised; the females pretty much rule the screen the whole series! And then I checked the staff list and found out that it's written by Yasuko Kobayashi. Kinda odd that Hina isn't quite at their level, while coming from the same head. Maybe Japanese like their girls frail? Or maybe somebody higher up decided to make Hina like that, because as far as I've observed her general writing style, Kobayashi doesn't like stereotypes. She tries (maybe a little too) hard to deviate from the conventions, which is probably why we had Ryuki and Den-O.

On the other hand, what's "wrong" with a lady who doesn't "kick ass", so to speak? I notice that women are biologically slightly weaker than men; before anybody goes "sexism" on me, that's not from me, that's science. That's their nature! I don't think that's anything to be ashamed of. A lady can be frail, and at the same time, have other character-building traits.

While I'm at it, what's wrong with a character who doesn't kick ass, housing pounds and pounds of muscles on the body? This is a really disappointing line of thought among today's fiction viewers.

P.S: Wait. Hina is a monstrously strong girl who gets kidnapped just like an average damsel. Could she be... Kobayashi's way of "flipping off" the popular "strong woman" stereotype?! [Speculate]
Image

Rescue Soldiers have never been more adorable.
User avatar
Arigomi
Save the life
Posts: 2472
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:45 am
Male: Yes
Alignment: Chaotic Good
My boom: LEGO

Re: Movie study about female roles

Post by Arigomi »

jolly_old_saint wrote:
Arigomi wrote:Actually, a lot people these days can't stand characters (male or female) that are seen as weak or emotional. It's really sad since not everyone can be attractive, charming, confident, funny, smart, strong, and any other positive traits I've neglected.
The thing is....if you don't see an attractive aspect worth aspiring to, you aren't really looking at anything. A person with no positive traits is a void of despair that just saps life from a story. There's no sense in having someone like that.
I see what you mean but the people I'm talking about form an opinion about a character and refuse to believe the character has any redeeming value.

In movies where a group of characters work together to survive, there always seems to be a character that throws a monkey wrench into plans of the protagonist. Most people wish these characters didn't exist without realizing how their absence makes a difference in the dramatic tension.

I've always been ambivalent about using the terms "strong" and "powerful" to describe modern women. Traditionally, men sought to be "strong" and "powerful" as well. Can women really find their own voice by following the same path men have taken?
User avatar
takenoko
Team Baron
Team Baron
Posts: 30427
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:33 pm
Male: Yes
Favorite series: All of them
Alignment: Neutral
My boom: stick
Quote: "Are you the new monarch, or are you just a pawn of fate?" - Emerald Herald
Type: ISFJ Protector
Location: Yami ni umare, yami ni kisu
Contact:

Re: Movie study about female roles

Post by takenoko »

>On the other hand, what's "wrong" with a lady who doesn't "kick ass", so to speak?

Well, nothing really. But in a show where people can become super heroes, why not more female heroes? My point isn't "why don't more women kick ass" it's "why aren't women as fully written, complicated characters as males".

Let's look at Gokaiger for a moment. Luka is a female, but she's also kind of a rogue. You know she's greedy but has a heart of gold, she likes the treasure and material wealth, she's got a backstory of being impoverished, and she's got a lot of thief-related skills.

Ahim's not all that different, she can fight, she's got a tragic backstory of her own, but she's more of the traditional stereotype. Outside the suit she's feminine, kind of demure, regal, and she's sympathetic of her teammates. While we know Luka is out for revenge against Zangyack, Ahim seems rather ambivalent about striking back against those who've wronged her. I know she's a princess, but shouldn't she express emotions of hatred or anger against Zangyack for what they've taken from her? So far, not really, so her backstory kind of falls flat. She's a good foil for the various other main characters, but what does Ahim really want? Tea, I guess?

There's nothing wrong with Ahim's character, but Luka's is written to be a lot more compelling. And we do see that Ahim's lack of fighting prowess causes her to train with Jan in that one episode, so it's not like weak femininity is bad all the time, it's just maybe female characters as a whole could be more interesting as characters. Female characters can be beautiful eye candy and interesting as people too, it's not mutually exclusive
User avatar
EndlessWaltz24
Hyakkiyakou wo Buttagiru
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:47 am
Male: Yes
Favorite series: Gekiranger
2nd Favorite Series: Magiranger
Dreamy: Hirata Yuka (Mele)
Alignment: Neutral Good
Location: A random room in a random house

Re: Movie study about female roles

Post by EndlessWaltz24 »

^I think in Ahim's particular case, we're going to eventually have a story arc that's going to revolve around her fleshing out her backstory. In addition, it's possible that her backstory's going to include some major plot points which is why they haven't done it yet either.

As far as women's roles in toku, well, I guess you can't help but make the female role a damsel in distress kind of thing for KR. I mean, you have this guy with henshin powers saving everyone and you have this female character following the main character everywhere, it just kind of happens right? Personally, one of the KR series that I believed had very strong female roles (though they also became damsels in distress every now and then) was Kiva.

I also agree that Sentai probably your best bet for finding stronger women roles. I mean, you're giving the female roles powers too so they tend to have episodes focusing on them overcoming their own obstacles by themselves right? Aside from the one usual eye candy episode where the females dress up like an idol or something, you'll usually have at least one female role symbolizing girl power. I don't know, I guess it might also be a cultural thing? I mean, I don't know how genders are viewed in Japan, but is gender discrimination still big in Japan?
User avatar
DrowningFishy
Rank Gone due to timeline changes
Posts: 843
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:03 am
omg are u a girl?: Yes
Favorite series: Kamen Rider
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Quote: "Silly Kaijiu. Kicks are for Riders!" - hunter-urufu
Location: CA

Re: Movie study about female roles

Post by DrowningFishy »

EndlessWaltz24 wrote: I guess it might also be a cultural thing? I mean, I don't know how genders are viewed in Japan, but is gender discrimination still big in Japan?
Old habits die hard, goes the same for everywhere. IF you google it the answer would be violence toward woman is bigger issue in Japan. If you google the top sex discrimination countries Japan is not top (of course). The point of my post before was habits die hard, and that includes discrimination. It takes a generation or two/three.
William_Duel
Rank Gone due to timeline changes
Posts: 808
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:29 pm
Male: Yes
Favorite series: Kamen Rider Kabuto
2nd Favorite Series: Kamen Rider Faiz
Alignment: Neutral
My boom: The World.

Re: Movie study about female roles

Post by William_Duel »

I have only just started watching Gransazers, but I have to admit I was shocked to find that there were transforming women too, who kicked butt. IT's such a rare thing to find that it was kinda cool. The problem is that I think the Japanese superhero is viewed in much the same way as the American superhero, in that it's a market largely aimed at males and we can see similar trends. When we have a show in which the female is the main focus, then the character reflects the need to reinforce female stereotypes or mostly just tits'n'ass for the male viewers to tittillate over. The examples that come to mind being Vanny Knights, Dogu-chan and that one about the Egyptian angel chick. Cutey Honey too but honestly not as bad (Miki and Yuki were portrayed at first as being much stronger women). There's the metal heroes genre which honestly I know little about (except through VR trooper exposure) but the women were sidekicks and even then those were only like two shows. So yes, there is an obvious sort of sexism in toku. This is unfortunate as I would love to see a more serious female hero in toku and a female kamen rider in a main role would be awesome. I think there is a lot of fan demand for this (or maybe this is just my perception from reading the boards here) and I think Toei subtley hints at this (especially during Kiva). But hopefully we'll get more than a pass around belt. I think they're afraid to make the choice due to whatever money reasons they may imagine but I hope they'll change one day.
Image
Soldat Veritas
User avatar
Lunagel
Bottle Shaker
Posts: 9016
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:09 am
omg are u a girl?: Yes
Favorite series: Magiranger
2nd Favorite Series: Gekiranger
Location: Japan

Re: Movie study about female roles

Post by Lunagel »

The problem in Japan isn't really sex discrimination, it's the fact that women there are still pretty stuck in their ways because it hasn't been long enough since they started realizing that "oh hey, this isn't a good idea". Women first got the vote in the US in 1920, while Japan was 1946, mostly due to pressures from the Occupation. The US has a whole extra generation on Japan using that as a benchmark in terms of women's rights. The stereotypical thing for women to do in Japan is to work until they get married, at which point their husband becomes the breadwinner and the woman stays home and takes care of house/kids. While this seems incredibly 1960s, keep in mind that the job track in Japan is not only extremely competitive, but a lot of people end up putting in long overtime and yes, even working themselves to death. Realistically, it's less stressful for the parents and the kids if one of them (and increasingly, more men have been doing the househusband thing while their wives are the career workers) stays home and takes care of the domestic side.

However, keeping in mind that KR and Sentai are primarily boy's shows, the female roles are actually pretty varied. I'm looking at the Saturday morning lineup for Cartoon Network as a baseline for currently airing new-ish American boy's shows, Clone Wars, Ben 10 and Johnny Test are the ones really sticking out as me. Males have the lead for all of those, but they're not without their own strong female characters. US shows tend to have more of the strong female characters because of the gender equality stuff, but to be honest, it does get a little repetitive. I'm not saying that they're bad, they're excellent role-models, and tons of fun to watch. However, not every girl is going to be strong, witty foils for the boys. I kind of respect Sentai and KR for that, because while they do have their brash, headstrong females (Luka, Akiko, Hana) you've also got ones that are quiet and reserved (Ahim, Kotoha). People come in all flavors of the rainbow, it's just that TV shows likes to focus on vanilla.
Post Reply

Return to “Movies”