Fansubbing Group Drama (Split from No W on June 13)

[That Guy]

On the plus side, with our HC release schedule, the week's gap will be barely noticable in the grand scheme of things.

I for one welcome our new Doremi overlords.

Doremi can suck on it. Quality over speed any day. Although no HC this week is, indeed, tragic.

[Magenta]

I hear randomly insulting people who work hard for the benefit of their fancommunity is a pretty great way to make friends.

Seriously, I meant my comment as a joke, but there's really no reason to actually hate on them. There's more circumstances that dictate release speed than purely the amount of work that's involved. They're fast because everything's done by two guys and those two guys live in the same house. They have a competent translator and the same resources we do, so their quality isn't in question, but we cater to different tastes and markets in terms of the form of our end result.

Acting like their presence is somehow a blight is more of an insult to the show's fanbase and those people who prefer simple/soft subs than to them.

tl;dr Posts like that are why people hate us as a group.

[takenoko]

LOL, now if only Mag showed that tolerance to groups that weren't his friends already

This is why we don't break the rule about talking about other groups

[Magenta]

This is why we don't break the rule about talking about other groups

Why, because it'd expose how arbitrary it is? It's an excuse to not have to deal with a simple facet of humanity - people are block-headed. It's no different to comparing series, or comparing characters, or comparing anything with anything else - and we don't seem to have any problem with that if the "this series/rider vs. that one" threads are anything to go by.

It's quite simple to examine the objective aspects of a group, in terms of composition, in terms of the output, and in terms of how they deliver it. All it takes then is an acceptance that what matters to each individual viewer - and in what way - is totally subjective. That's it.

In this case, Doremi is quicker, has a competent timer, has a decently accurate TL, but is not concerned with all the periphery of editing/typesetting/QC. We have a competent timer, a tolerably accurate TL, a good editor, a pair of anally retentive typesetters in Lobster and myself who will get everything just so, and a nice balanced QC team who do a great job of getting things just that little bit special extra perfect.

There we go, an objective analysis. That wasn't hard. Not like it's been made many many times in the last 4 months or anything. Not like people haven't used it, hand in hand with their own particular tastes, to decide which version they want to watch.

Anything worth making a rule against thusfar? IMO not.

The problem, and the reason we have this arbitrary rule, is because as you quite rightly say, there are people who are going to be blockheaded and will both make generalizing statements ("x is better" as opposed to "I prefer x") and then choose not to listen to reason - not because they can't have that opinion, but because they feel it's fact. But that doesn't mean we ban every other kind of comparitive topic because of the people who go KABUTO IS BEST RIDER NOBODY CAN BEAT KABUTO KABUTO COULD KILL ANYONE FUCK YOU. We just ignore these people. If they're disruptive, we remove them from the train of conversation. Problem solved.

The only things that are saved by this kind of isolationism are our egos. It doesn't benefit the viewer to give them the illusion there aren't choices out there.

I'd love to respond to the first line of your post, but I'm honestly not sure what it's referring to - asked in IRC, but I assume you're afk at the time I write this. The only negative thing I've done that immediately comes to mind was done in good humour and made actually insulting by a combination of people without functioning senses of humour being taunted by people fighting a corner on my behalf that I never wished them to fight.

[takenoko]

Look, it's not in our best interests to bash other groups, but it's also not in our best interests to promote other groups. Look, just because you think a rule is arbitrary or don't want to bother to understand it doesn't mean you can just break it whenever you feel like it

The problem isn't that you can make an argument sound impartial, the problem is you can never make it completely impartial in a way that people can't interpret it to one extreme or another. I don't want to deal with people promoting/bashing other groups here and your behavior is kind of inviting that. There's nothing wrong with saying that people should take those kind of discussions to more neutral places for discussion, in the same way we tell people to not talk about spoilers here

If you want to talk about changing the rule, talk about changing the rule. Don't just break it in defiance, that makes you kind of an asshole

Also, you're the one that gloats in private chat when people find our translations for Heartcatch more accurate. You say their quality isn't in question, but they just don't focus on "editing", "QC", and only have a "decently accurate TL". I haven't seen their subs, so I can only talk about our subs. But which one is better exactly?

[Magenta]

Look, it's not in our best interests to bash other groups, but it's also not in our best interests to promote other groups.

Our best interests? Probably not. Ultimately, though, if our goal is to facilitate people being able to watch and enjoy shows they otherwise wouldn't be able to, then there's an argument to be made for allowing them to do so in the way most comfortable for them.

Look, just because you think a rule is arbitrary or don't want to bother to understand it doesn't mean you can just break it whenever you feel like it

Guilty as charged. But if I'd just admitted that then we wouldn't be having a fairly decent debate about this, and I think that's far more constructive.

The problem isn't that you can make an argument sound impartial, the problem is you can never make it completely impartial in a way that people can't interpret it to one extreme or another. I don't want to deal with people promoting/bashing other groups here and your behavior is kind of inviting that. There's nothing wrong with saying that people should take those kind of discussions to more neutral places for discussion, in the same way we tell people to not talk about spoilers here

But is that really that different to my previous examples? The difference becomes that rather than bashing a character or a show you're bashing a group of people, and obviously you have to be more careful with that because you don't want to step on any toes, but there's no reason we can't have the decent conversation and just filter out those people who can't be civil.

On the other hand, the neutral ground point is a very good one, and possibly the most compelling. Chances are if people are on here there is going to be a natural bias, which in turn does tend to make it feel a bit... egofluffy. However, I will prolong this post by responding to your other points anyway, but yes, that's a fairly strong nail in my coffin.

Also, you're the one that gloats in private chat when people find our translations for Heartcatch more accurate.

Am I proud of my work? Yes. Do I personally think it's better? Yes. Do I expect everyone to share this viewpoint? No. I mean, I was helping someone earlier who's been doing some instrumental covers of the music set to our footage. Of course I smiled a little when I saw that, but I'm hardly gonna shout "HA HA FUCK YOU MACE WE ARE THE KINGS NOW" from the rooftops.

Especially as he was in the conversation too, but I digress!

You say their quality isn't in question, but they just don't focus on "editing", "QC", and only have a "decently accurate TL". I haven't seen their subs, so I can only talk about our subs. But which one is better exactly?

Well, of course I'm going to say that in my opinion, ours. We both put a lot of work into them to make them what they are. Hell, even Maceart from Doremi admits ours are better, but he also makes the point that, with the time we put into them, so they should be. The issue is that speed, ethos, all the different facets of a fansub's 'quality' are seperate things and, yes, while you can try and objectively measure them, you can't objectively measure both how much they matter to an individual viewer, and 'how'. Like, I personally like having fancy typesetting, but that could be a negative to some people.

Also with the TL thing I was really making a comparitive. They do accurate work but, yeah, they probably make a few mistakes. I probably make even more. The difference comes because, well, mostly because you do an excellent job covering my back, and that's mostly what gives ours the edge in translation accuracy, IMO.

[takenoko]

>if our goal is to facilitate people being able to watch and enjoy shows they otherwise wouldn't be able to, then there's an argument to be made for allowing them to do so in the way most comfortable for them.

Although the assumption is that if people come here, they're here to watch TN subs. This goes back to it being in our best interest to not mention it at all. I mean, part of it is to simply show respect to other groups by not having people group up to bash them. You know, mob mentality

Talking about other groups distracts from the main focus of what we're trying to do here. But is there any good reason to mention other groups here? It just leads to hurt feelings on one end or the other. Either TN is better and the other group sucks, causing people to bash them. Or TN is inferior and everyone will go watch the other group, which isn't in our best interest

So I heard from you that Doremi is a group that uses Chinese subs. In the past, you used to deride this as indirect translation. How much does their accuracy suffer for this?

See the pattern here? I hear everything about Doremi from you, so when you say "oh they're actually okay" it seems like you're being overly generous to them because they're you're friends, which would be unfair to forum goers. At the same time, if you simply said "oh yeah, we're better, Doremi is more inaccurate" that makes you sound like a cockbag, which turns people off. Either way, mentioning other groups is lose-lose

tldr: Look, we've had the rule going for three years and it seems like it's been to our benefit more than our detriment

[Magenta]

I'm happy to let that end there. The better argument won, I concede defeat, so I won't make a counterargument. I'll just respond to:

So I heard from you that Doremi is a group that uses Chinese subs. In the past, you used to deride this as indirect translation. How much does their accuracy suffer for this?

I think it depends on the method. If you're just using them straight out and you don't know Japanese, then yeah, accuracy will suffer. In their case though it's just a reference to speed things up, and their TL does actually know moon runes - I don't think they have any such reference when working on Doremi (the show) itself, so.

It's all become moot since the caption scripts became available to everyone and their goat, though, as we're all using those now. XD

[LobsterHime]

So I heard from you that Doremi is a group that uses Chinese subs. In the past, you used to deride this as indirect translation. How much does their accuracy suffer for this?

you heard from phoenix

[takenoko]

Seriously though, who are you to tell That Guy to not say Doremi sucks. If he's seen their work and that's his genuine opinion, what's wrong with that? Does your tolerance only go as far as to people saying what agrees with your own opinion?

[LobsterHime]

edit: deleted for :drama:

[Podima]

Seriously though, who are you to tell That Guy to not say Doremi sucks. If he's seen their work and that's his genuine opinion, what's wrong with that? Does your tolerance only go as far as to people saying what agrees with your own opinion?

I sure love arbitrary rules that only apply when saying positive things about other groups, not negative things.

This entire discussion is dumb. Whatever happened to being nice in general and not getting all defensive when other people are working in the same 'industry,' and heaven forbid, on the same projects as you? This insularity is really increasingly dumb, especially when it crops up in entirely unrelated goddamn things like this. Take a look at yourselves, and tell me you're not being blitheringly stupid. Really.

[That Guy]

Seriously though, who are you to tell That Guy to not say Doremi sucks. If he's seen their work and that's his genuine opinion, what's wrong with that? Does your tolerance only go as far as to people saying what agrees with your own opinion?

The thing is, I actually haven't, and while i kinda regret saying what I said, I also think it's been taken a bit more aggressively than I meant it. I was basically throwing out a bit of pride for our subs over theirs on the principle that....well, it's ours. I've seen nothing of their work and know nothing of their group, except that they exist and they put out HC pretty quickly after broadcast. I've become wary of speedsubbers on general principle, so I let my fingers get ahead of my brain when I wrote that comment.

On the subject of the "don't talk about other groups" rule, I think that should only apply when TVN's interests are at hand. Like, if it's another group subbing a show we do, yeah, don't talk about them, because it might foster debates or flame wars about whose is better, as well as losing some viewers. If it's another group subbing something we haven't subbed and have no plans of subbing, then I don't see much issue with it. For example, somebody wants to find groups subbing X show, and Google hasn't helped, so he asks here for recommendations. No harm comes to TVN because they're not competing with us, the person gets to watch his show, and the other group got a little publicity. Win-win-win situation, as far as I can see.

[Podima]

Excuse me what are you doing, this is a drama only topic

edit: This was posted in response to a reply that was left in the original thread.

[DrinkItDown]