Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by harpdevil » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:21 am

Lunagel wrote:I <3 you harp
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Nope, but I wouldn't surprised if someone had written something similar before. The whole point is that the same asstarded thing happens every bloody year anyway.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by That Guy » Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:36 pm

Reaver wrote:
That Guy wrote:That's ridiculously unfair. Previews don't have enough content to judge by, and in the first episode of anything, everybody in the crew is still figuring out the show. You've gotta give it three or four episodes for everybody to get settled into their roles and the plot to start unfolding.
I'm still gonna give Gosei a few episodes, but not expecting much, I gave Double 10 episodes even though I knew it was bad just by the previews and the first episode, after that 10, still was bad...
:o I didn't think it was possible to not like W. What DO you like?

@Barim: None of the stuff black cosmic ranger mentioned was in the first episode. It's not extremely spoilery stuff, but bcr has never displayed much comprehensive reading/writing abilities, so just ignore him and if a mod thinks it's spoilery, it'll be deleted.

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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by DrakosAmatras » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:05 pm

harpdevil wrote:
Instead the hive-mind focusses on which of the pre-teen female members is hotter, or on how every aspect of the show was developed to piss off Disney.


Which reminds me: I noticed in the end-credits of Magi and Geki towards some people in New Zealand, in English. I'm taking it means Toei was helping Disney to adapt the series easier, if anything, possibly by shooting scenes or collaborating with people in NZ, since I remember reading about a PR studio in the Disney-era locating in New Zealand, which they apparently used for their own substitute footage. Doesn't matter now, though, since Disney's cancelled the series.

Aside from that: Nice list, Harp. I mean it. I can't expect that little vocal minority to silence themselves anytime soon, but showing how illogical they are should, hopefully, at least tone 'em down a bit. People wag their tongues without thinking well first too often; they should know that a second thought isn't about indecisiveness, but about being thoughtful.

Speaking of vocal minority, I wonder which side of the world does it belong to... Personally, I don't tend to hear a lot from the Eastern audience; according to my experience, they'll either not watch it because it's not of their interest, or when they do, they usually don't complain too much. Although, it's not impossible that my experience is incomplete.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by DrakosAmatras » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:42 pm

Reaver wrote: I pretty much judge a show just with the previews and the first episode, hadn't been wrong about this once, I thought Gosei was bad just from the previews, watched the first episode, turns out I wasn't wrong, the same applied to KR W, same routine, but tried watched more episodes, still bad...


I honestly cannot understand how a 50-episode-average series (50 x 20 min. = 1000 min. > 16 hr.) can be judged by a preview of barely 60 seconds... A preview isn't even as informative as a book cover; it doesn't even tell you the premise correctly, much less character personalities or names. Here's a couple of examples:
  • GekiRanger: You don't get to know Jan is a feral child until the Training 1 aired.
  • W: When the "two-people-into-one" henshin was announced, some Yaoi jokes flew around, until the first episode aired, which reveals that it's actually "two-minds-into-one-body".


On a personal note... I don't know where you picked up that way of thinking, but -- I honestly mean no offense here. -- it's a pretty dangerous one in any aspect; it's called "Prejudice". You might wanna throw that away while possible.

Reaver wrote: I'm still gonna give Gosei a few episodes, but not expecting much, I gave Double 10 episodes even though I knew it was bad just by the previews and the first episode, after that 10, still was bad...


It might have something to do with your taste. If you want serious plots and characters, the most intense one in my memory I can recommend is Ryuki. Then again, Toku is kinda difficult to watch if you're not accepting of the absurdities you'll be thrown at; in short, having a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" really helps. Particularly because you're supposed to be rooting for the people in spandex and helmets.

W, while it does feel compacted and distilled due to the 2-episode-per-arc format, isn't bad at all, I feel; Riku Sanjo does the writing well, it doesn't rush with the plot, and it places a balanced amount of humor and seriousness, by not mixing them in every scene but putting them each in scenes where they actually belong. As for Goseiger, I'll wait and see. MagiRanger's first episode didn't attract me at first either. Toei is a professional in its field; I'll trust their decisions.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by Go-On Macaroni » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:02 pm

DrakosAmatras wrote:I honestly cannot understand how a 50-episode-average series (50 x 20 min. = 1000 min. > 16 hr.) can be judged by a preview of barely 60 seconds... A preview isn't even as informative as a book cover; it doesn't even tell you the premise correctly, much less character personalities or names.
If you read the post more, you'd know he/she watched at least more than the preview.

Yeah yeah, people don't read...
DrakosAmatras wrote:W, while it does feel compacted and distilled due to the 2-episode-per-arc format, isn't bad at all,
But if a person doesn't like it after 10 episodes how's your feelings on it gonna help?
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by D_B » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:44 pm

DrakosAmatras wrote:
Reaver wrote: I pretty much judge a show just with the previews and the first episode, hadn't been wrong about this once, I thought Gosei was bad just from the previews, watched the first episode, turns out I wasn't wrong, the same applied to KR W, same routine, but tried watched more episodes, still bad...
On a personal note... I don't know where you picked up that way of thinking, but -- I honestly mean no offense here. -- it's a pretty dangerous one in any aspect; it's called "Prejudice". You might wanna throw that away while possible.
That's a little rough. I agree it is usually a fairer idea to go into something with an open mind and give it a chance, but sometimes something about a series will just rub one person the wrong way.

Some people have specific attributes they like or dislike, and to some people they are show breaking. If any of these most loved or most hated items appear in the show, even for a few moments, it can be a deciding factor. For example... if an american show features any real amount of american country music, I absolutely cannot tolerate it... it makes me feel like brain cells are dying with every twanging-mispronounced verse. The presence of country music would not make a series "bad", but due to my massive hatred for the genre, it would most assuredly make me despise it and not want a thing to do with it. I *could* notice in a few seconds of a preview (and some reading about it after the preview) if the show featured a high quantity of country music, and a SINGLE episode would convince me for certain... so I can understand someone sometimes being able to see clearly in a single episode enough about a series to know they are not interested.

Now, sticking with my "american country music" example, I could tell you "I hate _________ because of all the GDMFing COUNTRY CRAP music in it!" and you should accept my opinion as being just that, my opinion. No harm, no foul. Reaver's opinion should not cause any foul here either for the same reason. However, if I had said "Country music ruined that show and now nobody will watch it because it just sucks!" then it would be a completely different story. When I read Reaver's comments, I read in an understood "bad to me", and not "bad and sucks horribly no matter who you are". So to me, that was just Reaver's opinion, and as opinions are *NOT FACT* and are instead personal feelings and tastes about things... I am totally okay with them not liking the current Sentai after one episode, for whatever their personal reasons.

Personally, I am already fairly certain Goseiger will not rank among my favorite sentai ever. That does not make it a "bad" show, obviously the writing will be solid (speaking historically) and the acting will be great and the stuntwork/effects will be stellar. It does not mean I dislike Sentai. All it does mean is that I do already have an opinion forming early in THIS Sentai's run. This does not make me a bad person, it does not make me prone to "prejudice", and it does not mean I am somehow "doing it wrong". It means I have my own tastes and dislikes, and this show might not be my favorite. If it becomes someone else's favorite ever, I am thrilled for them. Everyone should form their own opinion, THEIR OWN WAY, and nobody should call them names or imply they are "wrong" for having their own opinion.


That Guy wrote: I didn't think it was possible to not like W. What DO you like?
I don't like W much either. I watch it because TVN subs it, and I love high-quality subs of anything, even if I hate the content. Plus, the suit actor is the finest I have seen on any show (and who can look at Wakana and not smile?), but I dislike many of the characters and the "flow" of the show itself. It's just not to my specific tastes.
As far as what someone that dislikes W enjoys... I enjoy Kamen Rider, and Toku in general. So far, Skyrider, Black RX, Faiz and Ryuki tie for my favorites, with Den-o, Kuuga, Kabuto, Black and Decade closely tied just barely a heatbeat behind them. Stronger, Amazon, Hibiki and W are among my least liked. So, I suppose I really like Kamen Rider... ALOT... I just don't LOVE every single rider to date. W is among those I don't love. And that's okay, because everyone should have their own tastes and opinions, or life would be boring as hell.



As far as TV Tropes goes, I compare my opinion of that site to my opinion of country music. Every time I have gone there I have come away feeling like I lost a few brain cells for even reading the p00p idiots write on that site.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by DrakosAmatras » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:50 pm

Go-On Macaroni wrote: If you read the post more, you'd know he/she watched at least more than the preview. :roll:
True, my eyes slipped over the "first episode" part. My bad. But really, does that change what I meant in any way? The first episode alone isn't a perfect representation of a whole series either.
Go-On Macaroni wrote: But if a person doesn't like it after 10 episodes how's your feelings on it gonna help?
Well, it can't; their feelings aren't mine, after all. What I'm basically meant there is that different people have different reactions to a particular thing, thus: "I don't like it." =/= "It's bad." But you know, even after a viewer has seen a series once, he/she can't put all confidence in the current opinion. When I started watching Decade, it wasn't bad. After the TV series ended, it was suddenly the most confusing Toku I've seen up to this point. But after a while, even though I'm still confused, I started to see the shining facets of the series too. Short version: Revised, "polished" thoughts are more reliable than first thoughts. Whether I can connect to a series or not (i.e: whether I like it or not, or how much I liked it), repeated analysis tend to dig up at least a few aspects I can earnestly praise of.

By the way, I didn't mean to say "I like it." = "It's good." either; that's equally a frail reason as the opposite. It's just that when I have a choice of being positive or negative, I prefer the former. It puts less stress on your mind, after all.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by DrakosAmatras » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:11 pm

D_B wrote:This does not make me a bad person, it does not make me prone to "prejudice", and it does not mean I am somehow "doing it wrong".
I know. I'm not saying who's right or wrong. I honestly didn't meant any offense when I replied to Reaver either. When I used "Prejudice", I referred to its simplest meaning: "Judging prematurely"; this is too early in the show barely the beginning, we've got next to no info, and chances are, an opinion made under these conditions aren't gonna hold until the series finale. It's fine to not like a series, wouldn't labeling it "Bad" just because one didn't like it a tad harsh...?
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by Phoenix512 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:41 pm

Drakos, in the future, don't double post. If you something additional to say, then edit your last post if no one else had post after your last post.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by D_B » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:55 pm

DrakosAmatras wrote:
D_B wrote:This does not make me a bad person, it does not make me prone to "prejudice", and it does not mean I am somehow "doing it wrong".
I know. I'm not saying who's right or wrong. I honestly didn't meant any offense when I replied to Reaver either. When I used "Prejudice", I referred to its simplest meaning: "Judging prematurely"; this is too early in the show barely the beginning, we've got next to no info, and chances are, an opinion made under these conditions aren't gonna hold until the series finale. It's fine to not like a series, wouldn't labeling it "Bad" just because one didn't like it a tad harsh...?
When you eat something that tastes less than good, you call it what? Yep, "bad". You may hate the way my favorite food tastes. You call it "bad", and I call it "great". You may love Carrie Underwood's music, I call it "bad" (and alot of other choice words... someone shut her up so I can look at her and not have to hear her, please).

When someone says "this tastes bad" it does not mean it is bad food as much as it means they don't like it. Why would you jump to the conclusion it means anything different when it is applied to television tastes? As I stated before, I understood Reaver's post to clearly say "it is bad to me" and not "it is bad to everyone", just as I would understand someone telling me "this peanut butter, jelly, ham and caviar sandwich tastes bad" would imply "bad to them", while I know one person that LOVES them.

Opinions are not fact, opinions can be based on anything from a general feeling to a small detail. There is no "wrong" opinion, as long as the person giving an opinion is honest. Someone labeling something as "bad" because they dislike it is the most honest way the word can be used.



*edit*
I just wanted to add... I do somewhat agree with Reaver about "deciding early and still holding that opinion at the end too". Some things (Like Hibiki and W) have struck me early as not being "my thing", and in that my opinion seldom changes. I still like the same music, TV and movies today I did whenever I was first exposed to them, and my opinion is as close to "carved in stone" as it can be. I know this because I have people give me crap about "not ever changing" all the time. You can say "an opinion made under these conditions aren't gonna hold until the series finale" and it may hold true for you, but it may not be the same for anyone else because every person handles their opinion their own way. Stop assuming that the way you feel and change is true for everyone... because it is not exactly that way for anyone except you.

If someone hates the new Sentai after just one episode... *shrug*
So what?
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by That Guy » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:43 pm

D_B wrote:
That Guy wrote: I didn't think it was possible to not like W. What DO you like?
[wall of text]
I should add that I realize it's perfectly possible to dislike W, and I respect the opinions of those that do not, my comment was an exaggeration and the question was asked out of sincerity. I was curious about the nature of shows someone that doesn't like W would prefer.

Anyway. If someone doesn't like a series, that's their business, but I think they should give themselves a fair amount of time for it to prove itself before deciding that it's not worth their time. The non-indicative first episode trope exists for a reason. TV Tropes haters need not read it, the meaning I'm going for (which is somewhat contrary to the original definition of a pilot episode costing a large chunk of a series' budget) is exactly what it sounds like.

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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by DrakosAmatras » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:05 am

D_B wrote: When you eat something that tastes less than good, you call it what? Yep, "bad".
-----
When someone says "this tastes bad" it does not mean it is bad food as much as it means they don't like it.
-----
Opinions are not fact, opinions can be based on anything from a general feeling to a small detail. There is no "wrong" opinion, as long as the person giving an opinion is honest. Someone labeling something as "bad" because they dislike it is the most honest way the word can be used.
Aha... now I get what you mean by "Bad". It seems the word means differently to you and me. The word sounds a bit harsh to me because I usually don't label something "Bad" unless it's objectively wrong; in the case of Goseiger, where you'd use the word "Bad", I'd end up using "Confusing"(i.e:Some parts don't make sense. Yet.) or "Minimalistic"(i.e:Not a lot of things happened in Epic 1.) instead.

My point is that we've had different definitions throughout the conversation, so if any misunderstanding arose from that, I beg your pardon.
D_B wrote: If someone hates the new Sentai after just one episode... *shrug*
So what?
Well, if you put it that way... nothing, really. I'm me, they're them, after all.
D_B wrote: You can say "an opinion made under these conditions aren't gonna hold until the series finale" and it may hold true for you, but it may not be the same for anyone else because every person handles their opinion their own way.
Actually, I wrote "chances are, an opinion made under these conditions aren't gonna hold until the series finale"; I'm well aware of the subjectivity. Anyhow, my point there doesn't necessarily cover just this topic; "judging without sufficient information does not yield a secure understanding" is what I mean. Have a look at this scenario:

You need an opinion on matter X; you don't necessarily lack an opinion of your own, but it doesn't hurt to have an assurance. There are two choices:
#1. An opinion made without sufficient information.
#2. One made with sufficient information.
Forget about everything (I do mean everything; the purpose here is to clear the head before a choice/decision.) for a moment, and think about this: Which one would you consider a reliable opinion?
D_B wrote: Stop assuming that the way you feel and change is true for everyone... because it is not exactly that way for anyone except you.
I know. They don't necessarily feel or change just because one person can/does. On the other hand, the reverse can also be true as a corollary: Since I, a person, was able to have an opinion change, it proves that changing is indeed possible for a person. My point? Even if not in the same way, people can change. Changing isn't a sign of weakness; on the contrary, it helps a person develop, by "polishing" his/her ideas and concepts.. Perhaps that's why the word "Character Development" exists even if it's for fictional characters, wouldn't you say?

Before we get lost further in the conversation, I'd like to remind: From the beginning of the conversation, my side of the talk had been directed towards "Prejudice" "Judging prematurely without sufficient information". It doesn't just cover about Goseiger. I'm saying it's a universally unreliable method.

...Which reminds me: If this is a Goseiger thread, and I'm talking about philosophy... am I getting sidetracked?
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by kaemmerite » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:35 am

DrakosAmatras wrote:If you want serious plots and characters, the most intense one in my memory I can recommend is Ryuki.
Ryuki? Maybe. Ryuki had a lot of serious moments but if Reaver doesn't like GoseiRed then he'll absolutely hate Shinji, and if he hates (one of) the main character(s) it's pretty doubtful he'll like the series.

If he wants serious plots and characters actually I'd say his best bets would be Kuuga (which TVN hasn't finished yet) or Agito (which TVN hasn't started yet) and probably Kabuto (though even Kabuto had its silly moments).

'Course that's just for KR. For serious Sentai the older Sentai seems to deliver a bit more in the serious department actually; the problem being that it's hard to find any subs of them. Jetman is supposed to be the most serious Sentai of all time, and I mean I've seen some of Battle Fever J and Liveman and it's certainly a great deal more serious than the recent stuff.
D_B wrote:Personally, I am already fairly certain Goseiger will not rank among my favorite sentai ever.
I'm gonna laugh if/when Goseiger comes up with a huge epic plot twist that blows everyone's mind and completely changes their early perceptions of the show.

Not picking on you mind. XD I just remember going into Shinkenger thinking "Pssh there's no way I'll like this as much as Go-Onger" and even after the first episode I still thought "Man Shinkenger is totally a weak show, it's just gonna be mediocre." Then it got better. I still like Go-Onger better but the point remains that a single first episode isn't a very good indication of what a series will be like at all.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by GarTkEZ » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:47 am

@kaemmerite

I agree about Jetman being serious - I got to see it in full(even though it was dubbed in Filipino) and the plot arc is as strong, if not stronger than Shinken(which is the last Sentai I saw with a coherent story arc)

@topic

I think the problem is that most of the people on TVTropes are still hung over on Shinken - thus, their views are still a little biased against Goseiger.

I don't see though, how Sentai is ruined forever because Alata's not a Red Badass like the other 33 Red Senshi.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by DrakosAmatras » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:46 am

True. Ryuki is really, really heavy overall. The reason I recommended it is mostly due to its writing, which I feel is done very carefully. 13 Riders with complex, morally vague personalities plus extra characters? That's Kobayashi for ya. For SS, though... I'm not sure which to recommend as "serious". GoGoV? If you think about it, you're supposed to be rooting for people in colorful spandex to begin with, so...

Personally, though, I wouldn't suggest dismissing a series just because the main character(s) is/are not serious. When a serious character stays that way throughout the series, it's... fine; no upgrade but no downgrade either. But when a goofy-looking character develops into a "rich" character, that's an achievement for the creators. Also, lest we forget, either SS or KR is an eastern media, which tends to focus on emotions and psychology, i.e: spiritual factors. As such, the outer appearances tend to be used by writers as "spoiler tags", i.e: to distract viewers from deducing things too early, or just barely important at all.
Shinji, for example, is initially presented as a black-and-white optimist. Throughout the series, though, his optimism and viewpoints are challenged again and again and again; he makes a decision, only to find that it's not the "best" or "right" one, or that he doesn't want to choose it. But at the end of the series, his newfound ideals come full-circle back to his initial ideals after all. Another thing is that even though his concepts are wavering through the plot, he never lost that "glimmer" in his eyes hoping for the peaceful solution, despite the situations betraying his hopes countless times.
Short version: Appearance-wise, Shinji barely changed throughout the series. Character-wise? He embodies "Development" and "Anti-Development" concepts at the same time (i.e:He did change, but also held onto his ideals, and he finally ends up with what he started as.). That's from a naive, goofy and hopelessly optimistic character, mind. Wouldn't that be a good proof that appearances don't necessarily have to do with personalities and depth? Or in one word, "Complexity"?

-snip-

GarTkEZ wrote: I think the problem is that most of the people on TVTropes are still hung over on Shinken - thus, their views are still a little biased against Goseiger.


Um... I don't think it's limited to TVTropes. It has its share of people who speak without thinking, and the share of logically sound people; just like any other community on the net. In fact, the site's ground-purpose is fiction analysis. It just looks a little strange because it's slightly bent on humor. I should know; I moderate (spellcheck, re-wording, removing bias) the Toku pages there pretty often.
Last edited by Lunagel on Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Off topic and moreover, please don't talk about other people's subs for a show we are eventually going to do. It's very rude.
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Rescue Soldiers have never been more adorable.

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