Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by GarTkEZ »

@Drakos

Well, maybe.

In any case, if Gosei HAS ruined it, as the haters claim, I'm surprised they haven't cancelled it yet.

@topic

Seriously, I'm smelling kind of a Go-On vibe again from the other side of the fanbase.

The kind of reaction they had when it was still "Geki was F'n awesome, but oh, God, the trailer for Go-On sucks" and then after GP1, they were all "Noez,Sentai is supposed to be serious business, not this ******' inane stuff!!!"

It just gets annoying - and I'll admit, I kind of whined about Alata as well.

But, judging from what did happen in Epic 1, there's going to be a storyline that's, if not as strong as Shinkenger's, a very good one. It's just the Shinkenger hangover + people are getting creeped out from the suits' retro vibe + people who think the Card mechanic sucks.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by D_B »

kaemmerite wrote:
D_B wrote:Personally, I am already fairly certain Goseiger will not rank among my favorite sentai ever.
I'm gonna laugh if/when Goseiger comes up with a huge epic plot twist that blows everyone's mind and completely changes their early perceptions of the show.

Not picking on you mind. XD I just remember going into Shinkenger thinking "Pssh there's no way I'll like this as much as Go-Onger" and even after the first episode I still thought "Man Shinkenger is totally a weak show, it's just gonna be mediocre." Then it got better. I still like Go-Onger better but the point remains that a single first episode isn't a very good indication of what a series will be like at all.
Feel free to try and find anything you like amuzing. Plot does not make something I dislike suddenly get so much better I love it... I cannot claim to DISlike the new Sentai over the plot, when we HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE PLOT IS YET... so why would some great amazing awesome plot make any difference to me?

I cannot put my finger on what exactly it is about the show that I don't like... and it's not the first time I have decided I disliked a show early based on that first reaction... but in this case it's what happened. I am not saying the show sucks, I am not saying it's even less than equal to any other Sentai series in history (because obviously it's much the same as the rest.... some of which I did not like btw). I am just saying, each of us can like or dislike any aspects to any series we want, and trying to "wait until they come around to see your viewpoint" on it is silly.

We should be reveling in how the unique tastes can be addressed and pleased by different series of Toku, not trying to pick each other apart and act as if someone is superior/inferior/more-open-minded/more-close-minded/etc because of those differences.




*Edit*
Having just woke up I came across slightly "on the rag". Apologies.
All I am trying to say about this entire thread can be summed up easily enough...
If someone loves a specific series more than any other, I think it's great they have that series to love. For me, my all time favorite sentai are still to this day Fiveman and Jetman. If someone dislikes any series for whatever personal reasons, that is also great, because it lets us see the range of different tastes we each possess. For me, the three that stick out in my mind as easiest to dislike would have to be Go-onger, GoGoFive and at this moment Goseiger. That's purely my own personal tastes, and it does not mean anything about those respective series except that one person did not enjoy them as much as some others.

If someone else loves the three I dislike most and hates the two I love most, all it tells me about Sentai is that the writers are doing their jobs perfectly. You cannot please everyone all the time, but if they can appeal to every kind of taste at different times, then the series, as a whole, can always have a vast and diverse fanbase. And that's what we WANT for our favorite shows, isnt it?
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by demino555 »

On a personal note, this kind of reminded me of when I watched Go-onger after Gekiranger. Gekiranger didn't attract me at first but as the series went on I started taking a liking to it, no not the yellow ranger, the series as a whole(and maybe the chameleon lady in particular). Go-onger just seriously rubbed me the wrong way, it wasn't as bad as a warrant to kill the writer, it was just something that didn't quite suit my taste(watched through it anyway). As for Shinkenger, caught me hook line and sinker, though somewhere mid-series the energy dropped then regained again after about episode 40?

Now Goseiger ain't nothing like it's predecessors but I have to say that it reminds me a bit of Go-onger and Gekiranger. Go-onger because there's something about the series that just bugs me, no idea. Gekiranger because I think this series has potential to be big. Though it remains to be seen if it will.

Anyone else notice that the Gosei cards have more or less identical format to ganbaride cards?
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by zheyao »

demino555 wrote:Anyone else notice that the Gosei cards have more or less identical format to ganbaride cards?
That's cause the cards are created by Carddass, a Bandai subsidiary. It's responsible for releasing cards based on many popular franchises, such as Gundam, Ultraman, Kamen Rider, and Super Sentai. This includes both the Ganbaride and Gosei cards, so it's not surprising that they share many similarities.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by D_B »

demino555 wrote:On a personal note, this kind of reminded me of when I watched Go-onger after Gekiranger. Gekiranger didn't attract me at first but as the series went on I started taking a liking to it, no not the yellow ranger, the series as a whole(and maybe the chameleon lady in particular). Go-onger just seriously rubbed me the wrong way, it wasn't as bad as a warrant to kill the writer, it was just something that didn't quite suit my taste(watched through it anyway).

Now Goseiger ain't nothing like it's predecessors but I have to say that it reminds me a bit of Go-onger and Gekiranger. Go-onger because there's something about the series that just bugs me, no idea.
I had been considering this same line of reasoning the other night. For the most part I'd expect the people that enjoyed Go-onger to enjoy the general "feel" Goseiger has displayed, and the people that did not enjoy Go-onger to feel pretty "turned off" in short order.

Another thought that has occurred to me, concerning the whole "it's too soon to have any real idea about this series" discussion...
Those of us that have been watching Sentai for multiple decades should have a pretty good idea of how the series will typically run. Some series have a certain "vibe" to them, Go-onger being an easy one to use as an example. From the very beginning it was easy to see what overall direction the series would take, and some people loved it while others did not, right from the start.

Go-onger was still a solid Sentai series, and I am sure Goseiger will be just as good or better. But Toei knows they cannot please all the people all the time, and this series will please MOST sentai fans. Just as Shinkenger pleased MOST sentai fans. It's just not a year that a few of us, specifically, will fall in crazy love with the this year's sentai series. And that's fine, because every year has a majority of the fanbase being thrilled, and a small part being slightly less that happy. This year I happen to be in that small part, and I am happy to know that next year (statistically speaking) I should be in the happy majority again.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by DrakosAmatras »

D_B wrote: Those of us that have been watching Sentai for multiple decades should have a pretty good idea of how the series will typically run.


Do you mean "formula-wise" (i.e:New mecha upgrade around episode 10, the sixth member joins around episode 18 or so, or such...), or "story-wise" (plot + characters)? If it's the former, I think I get your point. As for the latter... I don't; not a lot of SS titles from the previous century are available translated, so I can't really compare myself. Running for over 3 decades, I won't be surprised if Toei had moments where they ran out of ideas, but has there been instances where they re-used a previous plot for a fresh title?

As for the characters, they tend to be different twists and plays of varying levels on existing archetypes (e.g: Hot-head, The Stoic, The Rebel, The Girl, Tsundere, etc...), so whether they seem the same or different depends on whether you're looking at the basic archetype or the resulting character, I suppose.

*[Edit]*

D_B wrote: And that's fine, because every year has a majority of the fanbase being thrilled, and a small part being slightly less that happy.


Reminds me of when I saw Go-onger, too. Even though I didn't outright dislike it, I was pretty much standing right beside the unhappy minority. But I've also mentioned in an earlier post that a second watch was different, and that I liked it. I didn't intend my example to be an instance everyone is to follow; I was merely trying to say that it's no impossible for opinions to vary/change depending on various circumstances, and that they aren't necessarily "set in stone", unless one consciously chooses so. I also understand what you mean by someone isn't in the "Right" or "Wrong" for having a different viewpoint; everyone deserves the right to have an opinion. I have absolutely no objections whatsoever about people having different viewpoints, nor about discussing them... discounting the possibility of frictions that can arise, of course. But more importantly, everyone deserves a well-founded, reasonable opinion... which requires sufficient information. Which is why I was against the idea of judging things too early.

But hey, I'm but an observer to anyone but myself; if someone want to decide Goseiger's gonna blow from just Epic 1, it's not like I can do anything about it even if I wanted to. Like you said, they're not at fault; in the worst case, hypothetically, they might have a hard time convincing others to take their logic seriously. That's all.

For a small example:
[A] If someone says "Go-onger blows!", I'd have a hard time accepting that, since he didn't say why.
If he says "Go-onger blows because of <these reasons>!", then he at least has reasons behind his thoughts, and whether the show itself blows or not, I can, for the very least, accept his statement as a difference in preference.

I won't hide: I thought Goseiger Epic 1 was rather "light" and "weak". I watched it again just to be sure... and I still feel pretty much the same. But no matter how mediocre Epic 1 is, I can't turn it into my opinion on the series; it'll just be "My opinion on Epic 1". After I've seen Epic 2, then my thoughts can be "My opinion on Goseiger's first 2 Epics". I can't say at this point whether further revelations would make Epic 1 more... uh, "intense", though theoretically speaking, it might make more sense after enough revelations.

One thing I'd like to say, though: I was against rash decisions throughout my posts, I still am, but that doesn't mean I was attacking anyone in particular. I just think rash decisions won't benefit anyone in any case, not just with this Goseiger talk. If that and my habit of using examples were misunderstood, I apologize.
Last edited by DrakosAmatras on Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by D_B »

I am not sure why you seem to have such difficulty in understanding what I am saying... I suspect you are simply trying to draw this "discussion" out so you can try to find some fault with my "logic" because my tastes differ from yours. But I will try one final time to answer your question, DrakosAmatras.

Each series of Sentai has a certain "feel" about it. The general pacing and intensity, the style of writing and the "flow" of the series, coupled with the way the characters act and the way their gear/weapons/henshin works is seldom exactly the same, but there are "flavors" to these traits. Series to series, these "flavors" are never DUPLICATED, but are frequently very similar. And like anything else you are exposed to for many years, it does become possible to identify what flavors you like most and dislike most fairly quickly.

From the first episode of Go-onger, I knew it's "flavor" was not to my specific liking. We could go on and on about what some people loved and what I did not, and it would all be every bit as meaningless as the rest of the drivel in most of the posts in this thread (my own included), and be miles off topic too. My comparison with Go-onger is because I suspect that Goseiger's "flavor" may be something akin to that of Go-onger. People whose tastes enjoyed one may well enjoy both. Those that did not enjoy one might not enjoy the other. This is similar to the way I suspect that fans of Jetman and Fiveman would enjoy Shinkenger from the first moments to the end, while I suspect (and have seen) some fans of Go-onger would not enjoy it so much. It's all about tastes and preferences. All of the Sentai shows have their strengths and qualities to be enjoyed, but not every series appeals to everyone, and that is exactly as it should be.

There are no fast and hard rules about tastes, and trying use your own tastes to determine what someone else would like is unfair, hence I call my suspicions only that, ideas and concepts I suspect. But I do know it is possible to decide, even after only a few seconds, if someone really likes something or not. It does not always make them shallow, and it does not mean they will be apt to "change their mind" later. It means they like what they like. Everyone should accept that other people like and dislike whatever for their own reasons and their own way. Some people make "snap decisions" about what they like. Some people have to take years to try and make their minds up. NONE of these approaches are wrong.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by DrakosAmatras »

D_B wrote:I am not sure why you seem to have such difficulty in understanding what I am saying... I suspect you are simply trying to draw this "discussion" out so you can try to find some fault with my "logic" because my tastes differ from yours. But I will try one final time to answer your question, DrakosAmatras.
Uh, no. I asked that honestly. Believe it or not, I am trying to understand.

*[Edit]*

From what you replied:
D_B wrote:Each series of Sentai has a certain "feel" about it. The general pacing and intensity, the style of writing and the "flow" of the series, coupled with the way the characters act and the way their gear/weapons/henshin works is seldom exactly the same, but there are "flavors" to these traits.
You don't mean just a factor, but overall. Ok. That's the answer.

In case you forgot, I never said in my posts that my logics are the only one, or they're to be followed, or how anyone against my way of thinking is wrong. I even checked them again. You know what, let me just summarize my posts before they spin out of my recent memory:
Spoiler
#1
- In response to Reaver saying he decides a show from the preview and first episode, I replied that it's a dangerous way of thinking. I didn't mean any offense, and in case he takes it the wrong way, I didn't forget to mention that I meant no offense.
- I also mentioned a bit that I don't think W was that bad, but that's not directed towards him. Just saying what I thought.
#2
- I mentioned that ["I don't like it." =/= "It's bad."], and ["I like it." =/= "It's good."]. Also that second thoughts are more reliable than first thoughts. I never told anyone to follow that.
- I also apologized if "Prejudice" was too harsh a word.
#3
- Your post before #3 clarified that neither him nor you were using the word "Bad" as in "universally horrid"; you just mean it's bad "for him/you". Ok. I accepted that as a misunderstanding of definition differences on my side. I don't know if you interpreted my words about me trying to use other words instead of "Bad".
- In response my statement that opinions made under insufficient conditions won't hold until the end, you said "it may not be the same for anyone else". I replied that I didn't forget that possibility.
- You said not everyone can change exactly the way I do. Ok. I accepted that too. I also replied it's not impossible for someone to have an opinion change. I don't know how you interpreted it.
#4
- I asked what you meant when you said "Those of us that have been watching Sentai for multiple decades should have a pretty good idea of how the series will typically run.". That was because while Super Sentai more-or-less follows a general formula, it also tries to be different each year. Which is why I was wondering if you meant the "predictability", or that there has been similarities before, since I haven't seen the earlier titles. That was out of curiosity.
- Following that is my belief about how everyone deserves a well-founded opinion, which is why I'm supporting the "non-quick judgement". Also that I can't influence others' decisions because whatever they choose is theirs only. (But this part was being written as an edit when you made your last post, so this isn't part of the conversation.)
- I followed with an apology in case you're taking my relentlessness the other way.


That's the summary of all my posts in our conversation, in the way I intended from the beginning. It's not unlikely that each of us are misunderstanding at least some of the other's meanings. Which is why I asked a small question as a start to clear the indigestions, and this happened...

*[Edit]*
Shorter version: Maybe I was a bit redundant, saying the same thing again and again, but that's not meant to challenge your ideas.
And here's what I should have said a while ago instead of the longwinded posts: "I'd prefer to not comment about the series for the time being. A little optimism doesn't hurt anyone, but if one doesn't want that, no worries."
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by D_B »

Fair enough.

Maybe I should have just tried to say:
"I wish everyone could calm down and understand that no true fan "loves" every season of Sentai or Kamen Rider, because they are all unique enough to have their own following. If someone dislikes a specific Sentai series, it's normal. Watch enough and eventually we all find at least one that's not our "thing". It just means they also have at least one other series they did embrace and "love". And that makes them a fan, and part of our extended-Japanese-toku-family."
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by demino555 »

No true fan can love EVERYTHING about a series because of one reason, that reason being the fans are the deciding factor whether the creators have dopped the bar or what not. Personal criticism and plain trolling can be differed to two different things. Criticism that includes personal feeling but based on unbiased facts and proofs can be used by the company that makes the series to improve their craft. Trolling flamers can either be people who just spew hate on the topic without any real thought to what they say, or they can be people who spew unconditional-OMG-I-want-your-babies love about their preferred series in promotion or defense.

Basically all I want to say is that a series is like a person, first impressions matter but you gotta dig deeper. Don't use the series as just a feel good escape from reality, try to meet it halfway and understand where it's coming from like you would a human being(that logic is what basically held me in one piece to watch through go-onger.).

Now if the hate for the series is just overflowing, then just avoid it. Like one that avoids that plague of a bully that always stole your lunch money when you were like 7 and he was a five time repeater.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by DrakosAmatras »

Go-On Macaroni wrote:
demino555 wrote:Don't use the series as just a feel good escape from reality, try to meet it halfway and understand where it's coming from like you would a human being
Wut? It's just a piece of fiction.
I think I get what demino's saying: Even if we're talking about a fiction, art, or any sort of creation, a dedicated creator will put whatever he has into it; morals, emotions, life lessons, idealism or cynicism... it could be anything. And those, shall we say, "points" he put into would react to some particular people, i.e: they'll understand, to varying extents, what the creator intended. (And if a person understands something, it's not very hard to get to like it as a next step. And of course, also entirely possible is that someone can dislike a fiction exactly because he understands the points and they contradict his principles.) For those who didn't manage to grasp the intended meanings, for whatever reasons, it'd be just a creation from just another person. They may or may not dislike it, It's not because they don't "get it"; they just... happened to not have the same sense as the creator. ...Which might be what D_B's been speaking of in my talk with him.

For example, to me, Decade is the most confusing Toku I've seen up to this point. (I may or may not have a second opinion after another take; the future's not mine to see.) But for some people, it can be their favourite KR title ever, hypothetically speaking, depending on whether the intentions packed in Decade got in touch with their "senses".

So, to sum it up, the way I understand demino's statement is not about taking a fiction seriously as real-life, but about getting to see the "points" in a series. After seeing those points, whether or not you'll agree with or like them, or how much seriousness you'll allow them, is entirely your choice.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by That Guy »

Just pointing out, Toei's not exactly going to be using our opinions anyway. Not only are we out of the target age demographic, we're on the other side of the world.
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by Lunagel »

I'm not!
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by That Guy »

And you have no idea how much I envy that. :P
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Re: Goseiger has ruined Sentai Forever in record time!

Post by lostinbrave »

Lunagel wrote:I'm not!
But your still not the target age.
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