KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

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KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by takenoko » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:06 am

For discussion of Wizard 51, please keep it to this thread only:
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=13592

Spoiler warning for Wizard. This discussion will cover all released materials about Kamen Rider Wizard, and mainly focus on the TV series as a whole.

I believe that in the past, I've said that I felt like the biggest weakness of Rider series was trying to do too much and not really coming up with anything satisfying as a result. I always firmly believed that reduced risky story elements would help keep a series grounded and help it be more successful.

Well, maybe Wizard should have taken more risks.

Rolling the series around in my head, I can certainly think of a few exciting moments, but overall a lot of it didn't leave a lasting impression. While we might not have known why, a lot of people pretty much predicted the big twist that Wiseman and white mage were the same guy. Looking back on it, the series might have been more interesting if they had dropped like half the Gate stories, revealed the twist halfway through the series, and spent the latter half with Wizard fighting to thwart Fueki's plans.

And to keep picking the same sore spot, maybe the story should have focused on its stronger more exciting elements. Which kind of boils down to Haruto versus Mayu for the spot of main character.

Haruto's a nice guy. And he gets a lot of funny moments in the series. But I never really felt like the drama relating to or involving him ever got me to care. His character rarely has to make any weighty decisions. It was mostly killing the bad monsters and saving the day. I mean, a great series has great antagonists. Who's Haruto's foil? Phoenix? No, he died super early. Medusa? Nope! Gremlin? Nope? Fueki? Sorta, but not really? Because the twist happens so late, that pretty much means white mage and Wiseman's interactions with everyone else is all super thin. Haruto's a nice guy, but he's a boring main hero.

And Mayu? She's on a quest for revenge. Haruto looks at the sun and decides "I'm gonna be a mage". Mayu overcomes the tragic death of her family to become a mage. She's the first major female Rider that we're given in a long time. She's after Medusa for killing her family. She should be after Fueki for killing her sister and directly causing the death of her family.

But none of Mayu's shit ever comes to fruition. It's just a massive cocktease throughout the whole series. They have all this gold and they leave it buried. They remove her from the series while she trains. They give her the shitty suit. She either leaves everything to Wizard/Beast or gets punched out of her transformation by anything stronger than a Ghul. She doesn't kill Medusa, that was Fueki. She doesn't go after Fueki, instead moping around till she's captured by a 10 year old kid. Never a Rider, just a supporting character to Wizard and Beast.

Oh yeah Beast. I actually like Beast a lot. I would have thought that the starvation thing would have come into play more, but it really never did. But that's fine, Beast doesn't need a storyline. He just needed to show up, amuse me with his wacky antics. Nitou's character injected a lot of fun to the series.

But yeah, it always boils down to the characters. Rinko was cool, needed more cool moments, overall just a straightup background character. Shunpei was annoying way too often, had a couple of cool moments. Why did we need two assistants for Haruto? Koyomi probably should have been combined into Shunpei or Rinko's characters. Wajima, you're fine in the background, we just need you for your shop and rings anyway. Donut cart people, you're fine.

And maybe the series suffers a bit from being formulaic. Medusa finds a Gate, Phantom attacks Gate before running away from Wizard. Then the Phantom is defeated in the second episode. Ironically, it's not too different from the dream world from the Fourze/Wizard movie. Haruto is just living his fantasy of being a hero, and everyday is the same, never changing.

If Gaim can really break away from the two act formula, that'd be a really good start at revitalizing Kamen Rider.

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Re: KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by Phoenix512 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:00 am

I viewed Haruto a bit differently than most of the other people do. He is just like us. A normal person who was thrust into being a hero. He probably be happy doing normal things except he has a burden to fight Phantoms for the greater good. Haruto isn't excited to fight these guys like other heroes would be. I know most of you viewed him as being boring but really we are mostly boring. We don't have larger than life personalities like Gentarou, Nitou, Shoutarou, and other Kamen Riders in the past does and if you say you do, you're lying. Haruto is definitely a more realistic Kamen Rider compared to his predecessors in the past.

As for Koyomi, what happened to her was the fault of the casting department not the writers. They picked someone who rather do other things outside of Wizard than fully committed to the show itself. The writers couldn't do much about this and had to get around her scheduling. They probably had some great story with her but it was thrown out the window. The main female role will always be a bane for KR shows because they can't ever cast the right person for it as something causes them to be a pain in the show itself. Rinko would probably been a better choice for the main female role but she was already decided as a support character.

I didn't mind Shunpei as other people did. He wasn't important and did what he needed to do for the most part. Same with the donut shop and Wajima.

I think revealing White Mage as Wiseman earlier could have help a bit and later on have Fueki appear to Haruto and reveal that he was both White Mage and Wiseman would make for some good stuff. I think they didn't have Mayu getting revenge on Fueki would have worked well. Sure he indirectly created Medusa who went on killing their parents but in the end, he wasn't the one who made Medusa killed their parents. She had second thoughts about using magic since it made her into something she didn't like. I probably feel disgusted by it as well. Eventually she did overcome it and use the power for the greater good. She was the opposite to Haruto that she used the power selfishly and finally used it for others which Haruto did the exact opposite of.

I enjoyed Wizard in the end. I like it for what it is. It could have been better but it isn't terrible as some of you say it is.
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Re: KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by takenoko » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:07 am

>I viewed Haruto a bit differently than most of the other people do. He is just like us. A normal person who was thrust into being a hero.

Yeah, but his arc isn't very interesting. He has some backstory, but overall his stories are very bland.

>As for Koyomi, what happened to her was the fault of the casting department not the writers.

People say things like that, but they always seem weird to me. If a person doesn't show up on set, then that's probably because the script didn't call for them to be there. It seems weird that a person just doesn't show up for their contractual duties just because they're off doing something else.

>I enjoyed Wizard in the end. I like it for what it is. It could have been better but it isn't terrible as some of you say it is.

It's not terrible. But it's far from great and definitely could have been a lot more interesting. Don't misinterpret what I'm saying just because I'm criticizing a work. I criticize everything if it calls for it, even things I do like.

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Re: KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by Arigomi » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:02 pm

Even if Koyomi didn't have much screen time, the character was so bland. It seems like the writers wanted to play up the "magical doll" angle but it backfired. It takes a perfect storm of writing, acting, and direction for this type of story.

One of the better storylines was the arc with Rinko and Phoenix. We got development with the characters that also moved the plot. There was danger, drama, and a bit of uncertainty as to how it would resolve itself.

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Re: KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by Catastrophe » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:05 pm

I enjoyed this after the first episode. It was just after a while, it was kind of repetitive and grating. The villains never really got a victory in during the entire series.

Some things that I think should have been done:

Really nice guy gate gets buddy buddy with the crew, but becomes a new Phantom general.

Fueki actually succumbing to dispear, and the Carbuncle being unleashed to be the final boss.

Also, the whole Dragon taking over Haruto thing that was teased with the Dragon forms was dropped. Infinity and his restoration of his powers kind of hinted at something but never really went anywhere.

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Re: KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by OOOKaiser » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:14 pm

The series was fine until after Haruto got his Infinity form. After that it starting going downhill from there. But in my opinion it was already downhill after they killed off phoenix. One of the most favorite subplots was Rinko and Phoenix, for once, I thought Rinko was going to die.

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Re: KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by takenoko » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:36 pm

Yeah, Phoenix was really Wizard's main antagonist. They had several encounters which built up their relationship. Then there was the Rinko thing. Then he died and Gremlin just never really filled his place (as far as being a foil for Haruto)

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Re: KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by OOOKaiser » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:42 pm

Not to mention Gremlin barely did anything except commanding Medusa to find Phantoms. Except for that arc where we found he was a serial killer and was going to kill that idol or singer.

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Re: KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by Kuchiri » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:25 pm

I enjoyed Wizard. My only major complaint was the fact none of the characters really had much development like previous riders. I don't think Haruto really had a full story, he was just there to kick things and cry about Koyomi. I remember early on they pointed out his parents then they did the whole soccer story and that was it. I believe Nitou had more episodes developing his story and characters than Wizard did and that's saying much.

The one thing I enjoyed most this season was the back stories of Phoenix, Medusa, and Gremlin. I was drawn in with how they were before and after becoming phantoms. I wish they would had done more like that with everyone's else story.

The final arc though was disappointing... Fueki was a horrible villain and the final fight was no where near as epic as some of the final fights we've had int he Heisei years and the whole dragon riding into Gremlin's heart to get the stone was very cheesy.

In all the next two episodes aren't looking that great already... I tend to dislike over clustering of characters.....did they redo Den-O's suit?

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Re: KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by Lunagel » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:48 pm

The main problem here I think is that Haruto doesn't change at all. He starts out basically the same way he finishes, confident in himself and knowing what he does is right. If maybe there was a crisis of faith in there that could count, but that never happens.

Mayu, on the other hand, starts out not knowing about the Phantoms, overcomes her despair and becomes a mage. She then questions herself after finding out Fueki's true motives and comes out stronger because of it. I think we're seeing a Final Fantasy X problem - the main character clearly isn't the person they've billed it as, because the story doesn't follow him at all. It's obviously this secondary character, and the only reason she hasn't got "main character" status is because she's a giiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirl.

Wizard had so many good ideas and so much potential but managed to kill them off before they ever came to fruition. Phoenix was an awesome character and a fantastic foil for Haruto, but he died. Gremlin could have been a good balancer between Medusa and Phoenix but without the latter, he just wandered about. Mayu's story had such great potential but went absolutely nowhere. They could have tried to add a little more oomph to Nitou's story too, like having more consequences than just a growling stomach which was played off for laughs more often than not.

All in all, it feels like they just threw a bunch of cliches at the board and saw which ones stuck. Wizard was good in theory, but poor in execution

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Re: KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by Kilowog » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:52 pm

In summary I really did enjoy this series, even if it had its bumps.

The characterization was alright. Haruto was very peaceful and calm in the face of so much danger, burden, and even loss, yet you could tell it bothered him deep down. But each time, he's kept it together in the end.

Koyomi bothered me in the sense of her death. Personally I didn't want it to be that "somehow" she comes back alive because that formula has been used a bit too much lately. It just seems a much better closure this way for her character and the motivation for Haruto to be the Hope for all, if not her. But still, it sucked that she died. I guess you could say I'm on the fence with this one.

Gremilin's story was quite a betrayal in the end, I agree there wholeheartedly. He gets the stone, only to have a completely different form from the wish he wanted. But....then...out of nowhere, he's causing havoc to get more mana so he can become human. "Ok Grem', gonna drop the ball on you an give you this form. Wait, you say you got an idea to become human by getting more mana? Ok you seem fine in that the stone trolled you, please continue". Ok, I guess i can live with that.


There was such good character development in Mayu, but it was disappointing to see her get thrown by the wayside in the last few episodes. However, at least she's now able to movie on and use her powers to help others like she mentioned sometime ago.


Now, Nitou. He! Was! Great! Indeed, he was what helped carried the show with his antics. No major problems with him at all!

Shunpei, though he was a bit annoying sometimes he at least had some good moments in reminding Haruto and even Nitou to focus on what's important. I'm glad he's got a job at Wajima's Shop. Speaking of which Wajima still seems a mystery to me, with his connection to making rings from special stones. Maybe I'm reading too much into that.

Rinko was good and I'm glad they let her do what she's able to do as a detective at times; investigation work. It would have sucked if she was "just there", and be in the background all of the time.

I guess they didn't want to drag out Fueki too much with his human/whitewizard/wizeman-ness, at my guessing, so I'm fine with how things played out with him, though how tragic it has been.


My real complaints were two things; the Phantoms and Wizard's abilities.

1.Phamtoms; their names and appearances with some of them totally contrast with one another. I mean, Weretiger looked more like an Angler Fish than an actual Weretiger, for example.

2. Wizards abilities were good, though at times I felt like they were extremely underused in terms of versatility since he has total control of four elements. But, I can't gripe about it too much since its in the direction of the writers and directors, plus they have to product place their merchandise anyways. I can' deal with that, but still....


Other than that I really did enjoy watching this and enjoyed talking about it a bit with all of you here.

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Re: KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by CrimsonRider » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:42 am

I guess I shoud say one thing: now I know that I was totally wrong when Fourze's details has been leaked to the public. I guess many others were wrong, when saying it will NOT be a good series. I didn't hope for something as serious and epic as OOO. And in the end, after last episode aired and Wizard began airing, I... kind of expected to see something similar from it. :D
But now, after I've watched Wizard, I think it really lacked something that absolutely was in Fourze, and it's not just Gentarou's personality. Well, who knows... :D
Oh, and about Infinity - actually I like it! How they depicted Haruto using it really reminded me about Faiz Blaster - in my personal opinion, that's the true final form, effectively invincible when interacting with all bad guys. I'm really distracted when I see rider achieving final form, and then 1-2 episode after that it actually becomes a total let-down, suffering from the next MotW (although it's more likely happening in Sentai). Even grand Blade King suffered a lot in Decade.
And now that we've got Wizard Infinity, I seriously hope that Toei won't beat the shit out of it during next Super Hero Taisen releases. Let's just hope about that. :|
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Re: KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by ViRGE » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:53 am

takenoko wrote:If Gaim can really break away from the two act formula, that'd be a really good start at revitalizing Kamen Rider.
Now that would be interesting. The two act formula is such a core part of the modern incarnations of Kamen Rider. I don't really see it as being a bad thing, however it does have its pitfalls: mainly that it traps the writers into having to explain why the MOTW gets away roughly 20 times a year, and it means every story has to be structured to have a cliffhanger in the middle. Getting rid of the two act formula would definitely shake things up, which if Wizard is any indication KR may need, but a one episode formula would limit how deep they can go at times. In the end I'm not sure if it would be better or not.

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Re: KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by TheLastTatlFan » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:16 am

My thoughts about Wizard as a whole just after I watched the finale:

-Gremlin is just a nuisance
-Koyomi needed more screentime
-Shunpei needed none

I get that Koyomi's actress is a popular idol so he couldn't be in every episode. But that was a bad call on the part of Toei's casting department, and it really hurt the series.

Shunpei just plain didn't need to exist. He had nothing to do with anything, and his desire to become Wajima's apprentice so he could make a great ring for Haruto in the finale just highlights that.

Also, Mayu should have had a bigger role. Like, as big as Kousuke. And all her suit needed was to be trimmed of the monstrous features (Big ol' claw hand, tail, shoulder spikes) and painted purple or something and it would have been fine. Great, even. Instead she literally just became one of the mooks from the movie. At least Yuzuru and that other guy got the masks in different colors...

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Re: KR Wizard Complete Series Discussion

Post by Flying-gg » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:27 am

I agree with most of you. There were tons of good ideas but none came to be fully exploited. I was half expecting during the first part of the serie that Haruto having a monster inside him would take a bigger part. I was hoping Infinity would reintroduce that but no... Mayu was a superb character with a good backstory and good development if it would have been well employed but no... Even Fueki when you think about it : he was not your typical villain hoping to destroy or control the world. He was a father mourning his dead daughter. But the writers didn't fully or truly use that aspect.

On a side note I didn't care for Nitou that much and surprisly he was the one who has the best moment of the show imho : he saved everyone from another sabbath, sacrificing his own powers in the process.

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