Is Ghost the worst Kamen Rider series ever?

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Re: Kaigan KR Ghost 36

Post by Go-On Macaroni »

darkmage02 wrote:Your argument is going no where lol. Pointing out the problems of other series doesn't change the fact that Ghost is a real shitty show with shitty monsters, shitty plot and shitty villains.
All I was doing was saying that the Ganma can't be worse than the Phantoms due to these reasons; it wasn't even you who brought this part up (looking back, it was someone named "Shurikenger108") so, I dunno why you're getting so upset over it. Nor are you trying to refute my claims, come to think about it, so this whole thing is becoming quite silly.
HAHAHA neither did I say what Faiz did was original. Even within the Heisei series Agito raised that question before Faiz did. It wasn't original, but it's still better than Ghost.
I know you didn't, I only said it as a rebuttal. And of course Agito is better (Faiz isn't :P ) but if I went around expecting every following season to be Agito, I'd never watch any of them.
So, I don't expect Ghost to be Agito, I just expect it to be good and so far, I think it is.
darkmage02 wrote:Are you telling me you're enjoying what Ghost has to offer now?
Yes, in fact, I am; last night's ep. put me in a rather good mood. I'm not letting that color my replies, though.
darkmage02 wrote:Lol bring something valid to the table for discussion pls kthxbai
What would be valid, then? "I hate Ghost and everything it stands for! Takuro Fukuda deserves to never write again and Toei should be ashamed of themselves"? xP
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Re: Kaigan KR Ghost 36

Post by darkmage02 »

Go-On Macaroni wrote:All I was doing was saying that the Ganma can't be worse than the Phantoms due to these reasons; it wasn't even you who brought this part up (looking back, it was someone named "Shurikenger108") so, I dunno why you're getting so upset over it. Nor are you trying to refute my claims, come to think about it, so this whole thing is becoming quite silly.
So in your context, how exactly is Ganma more terrifying than the Phantoms? Illustrate me on what they did up to now that's even moderately devastating. The Phantoms planned to put Gates to despair so more Phantoms can be born out, killing the Gates in process. Illustrate me on what the Ganma has been doing up till now other than randomly blowing things up and thrashing with people's emotions and dreams.

I know it was someone else who started on the Phantom discussion, but since you're seeing Ghost on such a good light, humour me on things that I might miss out.
Go-On Macaroni wrote:I know you didn't, I only said it as a rebuttal. And of course Agito is better (Faiz isn't :P ) but if I went around expecting every following season to be Agito, I'd never watch any of them.
So, I don't expect Ghost to be Agito, I just expect it to be good and so far, I think it is.
To each their own. I won't stop you from liking Ghost, and you can't stop me from hating it. Funny how despite you hammering the other series and claiming Ghost is good, you never actually state what makes Ghost good.

So now here's your chance. Make your case on why Ghost is good and I'll read it with an open mind.
Go-On Macaroni wrote:What would be valid, then? "I hate Ghost and everything it stands for! Takuro Fukuda deserves to never write again and Toei should be ashamed of themselves"? xP
What would be valid is you actually stating the facts of what's good about Ghost, which until now you haven't.
Last edited by darkmage02 on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Ghost the worst Kamen Rider series ever?

Post by kikaida »

Dear OP . . . what's good and bad about KR is pretty much opinion. There are good and bad things about every Rider. Live with it or don't watch it. OR, how about this: go learn Japanese, become a screen writer/director/producer of tokusatsu, get a job at TV Asahi or Bandai and produce the best Kamen Rider series you like. And you know what? Some little creep out in "internet land" who knows what a really great Kamen Rider should be will say that your Rider is the worst.
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Re: Is Ghost the worst Kamen Rider series ever?

Post by darkmage02 »

kikaida wrote:Dear OP . . . what's good and bad about KR is pretty much opinion. There are good and bad things about every Rider. Live with it or don't watch it. OR, how about this: go learn Japanese, become a screen writer/director/producer of tokusatsu, get a job at TV Asahi or Bandai and produce the best Kamen Rider series you like. And you know what? Some little creep out in "internet land" who knows what a really great Kamen Rider should be will say that your Rider is the worst.
If by the very definition of expressing whether one likes or dislikes a show is equivalent to "little creep out in internet land" then I guess this forum for discussion shouldn't exist? People shouldn't comment on the show, people shouldn't write reviews, and if they want to be unhappy about a show they should just write/direct one?
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Re: Is Ghost the worst Kamen Rider series ever?

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kikaida wrote:Dear OP . . . what's good and bad about KR is pretty much opinion. There are good and bad things about every Rider. Live with it or don't watch it. OR, how about this: go learn Japanese, become a screen writer/director/producer of tokusatsu, get a job at TV Asahi or Bandai and produce the best Kamen Rider series you like. And you know what? Some little creep out in "internet land" who knows what a really great Kamen Rider should be will say that your Rider is the worst.
The original poster did not directly created this topic. I split this off from the episode 36 thread since this had nothing to do with the episode and felt it would be better as its own separate topic. I did create the name of the topic.

I don't have a current opinion about this until the series ends.
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Re: Is Ghost the worst Kamen Rider series ever?

Post by resop2 »

Ghost would definitely rise in my estimation if Bills goes psycho heel and cuts a promo on Akari on how bad her singing is and makes Akari cry. That would be way more villainous than most of the villains on the show so far.

As for Ghost being the worst, I don't know. It could still amaze us all with a thrilling final arc that ties up every single plot thread and gives weight to all of the lead characters and makes Kanon a two dimensional figure (up from one).

As for other shows being bad:

Hibiki: This could be the worst season at "being" a Kamen Rider show, but as a non-Kamen Rider special effects show it's pretty good. It got bogged down in the second half because they replaced the director, and they really soiled the bed on the last episode, but the first half was very engaging and very uniquely directed.

OOO: Holds up well for me. The hero has to work through a ton of philosophical issues and the Ankh is a perfect foil.

Den-O: Den-O is as good at comedy as Ghost is bad at comedy. They got the balance of seriousness and humor correctly.

Kabuto: Has a raging jackass as the lead Rider but the minor characters are super cool.

Kiva: Super hot music, faux vampire monsters, and a split timeline narrative made this enjoyable for me.

Decade: A bunch of half-assed fan-fics as plots. But, it was fun to sort of recycle most of the old riders.

Gaim: I couldn't get through it. I bailed after 15 episodes. Dumbest transformation scenes EVER! If Hibiki was Kamen Rider the Musical, then Gaim is Kamen Rider Street Dance Show.

Drive: Bailed after one episode. The benevolent aliens who give the Rider his power are sentient TONKA TOYS???????????????????
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Re: Is Ghost the worst Kamen Rider series ever?

Post by Go-On Macaroni »

darkmage02 wrote:So in your context, how exactly is Ganma more terrifying than the Phantoms? Illustrate me on what they did up to now that's even moderately devastating. The Phantoms planned to put Gates to despair so more Phantoms can be born out, killing the Gates in process. Illustrate me on what the Ganma has been doing up till now other than randomly blowing things up and thrashing with people's emotions and dreams.
As I've said numerous times, the Phantoms were.. ok so, you've seen Wizard, right? You know White Wizard's Eclipse plan? Basically, he needed certain people, people who overcame despair for his plan to work. This meant it could be anyone and he needed them alive, this in turn nerfed the Phantoms where they could attack people but not kill them leading for Haruto to save them every single time. This tended to get really bland if only because it meant everything was rigged for Haruto to win every time, the Phantoms couldn't do anything threatening; I mean, sure, they could make fights for the Riders (because this franchise is built upon effect stuff) but, until White Wizard revealed that he was a diet Shiro Kanzaki, it was a lot of doing for nothing (and even then, it sucked but that's getting into my bias there).

Also, c'mon, someone like Medusa lost a lot of points when her only response to asking Beast if he wants to team up is just "Lololzz, okay!" and it gets dropped. She probably went back to her bowling alley and tallied her high score or something, she didn't care.

The Ganma? Originally, Adonis kept peace in Ganma World but he felt that humans were flawed. For that matter, he wished to fix Human World.. this got warped when Adel took over and used Adonis' ideals as a matter for ~World Domination~. The Ganma conflict with Takeru because of the latter's belief in the potential and strength of humans. You can see early on where they used people like a prodigy composer, a scientist and Takeru connected with them.. this progressed as he tapped into their memories, how his friends brought him back to life, how he connected with his friends to power-up Mugen Damashii.

The Ganma's threat comes partly from how they can posses people and average Joes wouldn't know it (seen during the first arc), how they can bring people back from the dead (as seen in the arc with Yellow Buster's actress) and again, people wouldn't know it. Think how long Igor has taken over that company and no one is aware aside from the mains.

Tl;dr: The Ganma are "more terrifying" because they're allowed to be villains and their motivations are consistent with the show.
darkmage02 wrote:<snip>
Okay so, what I enjoy about Ghost is generally the characters and while not it doesn't work every time, I can get through shows easier if I tend to like the characters (Precure's Max Heart was one example of that, while Smile Precure was a butt because I didn't like any of them). Onari and Akari click with me and it helps that their humor is typically situational rather than "Laugh! Are you laughing?!?" like what Drive and some others pulled. Yurusen's the best and I'm only maybe partly saying that because Aoi Yuuki is awesome (Ok, she's pretty funny in her own right).. I could go on. The casting wasn't too bad this year.

While I'm on it, Alain's arc, I didn't mind too much (though I wonder how I would've felt if we hadn't just got a worse version with Machine Chaser the year prior). He didn't do too much at first but after Saionji died, he went on to staying active and becoming Necrom; a step up from Chaser's "I hate rider!" "I am goo-- reprogram, beep boop, I hate rider!" for 13-ish bland episodes.
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Re: Is Ghost the worst Kamen Rider series ever?

Post by Rifaz »

What I don't like about Ghost is how it reuses its monsters too much. Is kamen rider show usually like this? While I know about kamen rider for quite a while, this is the first show I actually watch each week.
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Re: Is Ghost the worst Kamen Rider series ever?

Post by darkmage02 »

Go-On Macaroni wrote: As I've said numerous times, the Phantoms were.. ok so, you've seen Wizard, right? You know White Wizard's Eclipse plan? Basically, he needed certain people, people who overcame despair for his plan to work. This meant it could be anyone and he needed them alive, this in turn nerfed the Phantoms where they could attack people but not kill them leading for Haruto to save them every single time. This tended to get really bland if only because it meant everything was rigged for Haruto to win every time, the Phantoms couldn't do anything threatening; I mean, sure, they could make fights for the Riders (because this franchise is built upon effect stuff) but, until White Wizard revealed that he was a diet Shiro Kanzaki, it was a lot of doing for nothing (and even then, it sucked but that's getting into my bias there).

Also, c'mon, someone like Medusa lost a lot of points when her only response to asking Beast if he wants to team up is just "Lololzz, okay!" and it gets dropped. She probably went back to her bowling alley and tallied her high score or something, she didn't care.

The Ganma? Originally, Adonis kept peace in Ganma World but he felt that humans were flawed. For that matter, he wished to fix Human World.. this got warped when Adel took over and used Adonis' ideals as a matter for ~World Domination~. The Ganma conflict with Takeru because of the latter's belief in the potential and strength of humans. You can see early on where they used people like a prodigy composer, a scientist and Takeru connected with them.. this progressed as he tapped into their memories, how his friends brought him back to life, how he connected with his friends to power-up Mugen Damashii.

The Ganma's threat comes partly from how they can posses people and average Joes wouldn't know it (seen during the first arc), how they can bring people back from the dead (as seen in the arc with Yellow Buster's actress) and again, people wouldn't know it. Think how long Igor has taken over that company and no one is aware aside from the mains.

Tl;dr: The Ganma are "more terrifying" because they're allowed to be villains and their motivations are consistent with the show.
Alright, first thing's first. Wizard was 3 years ago so forgive me if I miss out or forgot some details. But here's the thing. True, the White Wizard needed a certain amount of Gates to overcome despair so that his plan could work. But do note that he didn't reveal his plan till the very end and even his close aides (Phoenix, Medusa, Gremlin) had no idea of his true plan. Their goal for the most part of the show was "get more Gates to despair, give birth to more Phantoms). In case you forgot, the White Wizard played a dual role - one of the saviour and one of the destroyer. He became Wiseman to goad the Phantoms to create more of them, and became White Wizard to see to it that some Gates survived.

Meaning? He didn't go like "eh Medusa, hold back on killing those damn humans. Make sure they survive ok? Maybe give 5/10 of your strength." No, he didn't. He told the Phantoms to go make as many Gates despair as possible, and born me some more Phantoms. He didn't tell them to hold punches, cause he knows only those that can survive out of their own will are deserving to the Chosen Gates.

Similarly, he is also counting on Wizard to fail. Because if Wizard succeed, he couldn't get the Gates he wanted. His whole plan boiled down to Wizard failing to save the Gate, and if the Gate give in to despair and die and born new Phantom... well.... plus 1 then! But IF Wizard failed and the Gate overcame despair on his/her own, then voila! I got my Chosen One!

Tl;dr: No, the Phantoms weren't rigged so Wizard did win all the time.

And let's put it this way. The White Wizard conjured the Sabbath which killed lots of people, and while no one died throughout the show it's still undeniable that ALOT of people died giving birth to the Phantoms while in Ghost.... let's see... Takeru died and got revived 3 times...okay. Well his dad's death is permanent but still that's one person vs like hundreds.

And Adel's plan is to create a Perfect World - but what has he done so far that actually leads to that? Sending Ganzaimers to test Takeru one after another.... seems like he's more obsessed with what Takeru can do instead. And Igor.... okay I'm no scientist and correct me if I'm wrong, but what has he done that's even remotely close to world domination or creating a perfect world? He has been doing lots of weird experiments - that, granted, caused lots of problems - but how do those contribute to Adel's ultimate goal?

Compared to Helheim of Gaim, where we see the threat becoming more and more imminent as the plot progressed, or the first Global Freeze in Drive which see the deaths of thousands, or the Sabbath which killed hundreds (or was it thousands?), what Igor was doing is pretty much child's play. I know and understand the amount of threat that Adel and Igor impose on the world should they succeed, but up till now the show's doing a crappy job in illustrating their plans towards that ultimate goal.

And lastly, yah true that the Ganma is terrifying in that they can possess almost anyone and goes undetected, but usually the possessed demonstrates extremities in a certain aspect(s) that's a giveaway. Whereas in Wizard, remember early on there's this police chief who's been hiding undetected for months and it wasn't until he wanted to kill Rinko did he gave the slip.

And Medusa killed the parents of her Gate. And oh Gremlin was already a serial murderer before he became a Phantom. And continued to kill countless woman after. He has zero fucks for finding the Gates. Remind me again who has the Ganma killed?

Another tl;dr: sorry, I just can't see the Ganma possessing a bigger threat than ANY of the other monsters in the KR series.


Go-On Macaroni wrote:Okay so, what I enjoy about Ghost is generally the characters and while not it doesn't work every time, I can get through shows easier if I tend to like the characters (Precure's Max Heart was one example of that, while Smile Precure was a butt because I didn't like any of them). Onari and Akari click with me and it helps that their humor is typically situational rather than "Laugh! Are you laughing?!?" like what Drive and some others pulled. Yurusen's the best and I'm only maybe partly saying that because Aoi Yuuki is awesome (Ok, she's pretty funny in her own right).. I could go on. The casting wasn't too bad this year.

While I'm on it, Alain's arc, I didn't mind too much (though I wonder how I would've felt if we hadn't just got a worse version with Machine Chaser the year prior). He didn't do too much at first but after Saionji died, he went on to staying active and becoming Necrom; a step up from Chaser's "I hate rider!" "I am goo-- reprogram, beep boop, I hate rider!" for 13-ish bland episodes.

Well, whether one likes or dislikes a character is very subjective so I'm going to drop this here. I can list down a 100 reasons on why Ghost's characters sucks and you will come up with 101 reasons on why they're awesome. Similar on reverse; I can tell 100 reasons why Faiz is better and you will give me 101 reasons why Faiz sucks. So I'm going to let this drop here.
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Re: Is Ghost the worst Kamen Rider series ever?

Post by darkmage02 »

resop2 wrote:
Gaim: I couldn't get through it. I bailed after 15 episodes. Dumbest transformation scenes EVER! If Hibiki was Kamen Rider the Musical, then Gaim is Kamen Rider Street Dance Show.
LOL well give the show another try then? It has become the darkest Neo-Heisei to date (well, counting the main Rider shows and not including Amazons). The later arcs were pretty dark and the characters and plot got really twisted towards the end. To me, Gaim was one of the best KR series of late.
resop2 wrote:Drive: Bailed after one episode. The benevolent aliens who give the Rider his power are sentient TONKA TOYS???????????????????
Hahahahaha I get what you mean, but while it has its problems, maybe give this one a try too? It was everywhere in the start but it dealt with pretty mature stuffs towards the end and turns out to be quite decent.
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Re: Is Ghost the worst Kamen Rider series ever?

Post by Lunagel »

Averagely mediocre. Ghost has some high points and low points and overall it's worth a watch but not a rewatch. I wouldn't put it as the worst, just a "oh yeah, that series happened"
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Re: Is Ghost the worst Kamen Rider series ever?

Post by Leonsagara »

It's really not a good idea to try to judge a series' placement on quality until after it's over. There are so many loose threads right now that I wouldn't feel good about saying where it will end up. Will it be the best ever? No, probably not. But what happens between now and the end of the series could move it up or down the scale.
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Re: Is Ghost the worst Kamen Rider series ever?

Post by Kogashi »

I agree that one should wait out for the ending to see just how good or how bad as a whole a series will be considered (looking at you Ryuki)... But that said, this is in the running for my least favorite Kamen Rider shows I've yet seen... Do keep in mind, my tastes are not, the most normal from what I've heard. I liked Decade, for instance, and hated Go-busters. Again, as others pointed out, it does come down a lot to opinion, how much narrative flaws or hiccups distract you, how much you weight what you like against what you don't like... That said this show has huuurt me to watch most of the time. To see proof of this, feel free to check out my channel... sadly Toei has blocked I think, one of two of my reviews worldwide... Though that might have been cause of Jyuohgers.
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Re: Is Ghost the worst Kamen Rider series ever?

Post by HowlingSnail »

Ghost is bad yes, but it's not the worst ever. Not in a universe where Hibiki and Kuuga exist.
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Re: Is Ghost the worst Kamen Rider series ever?

Post by Kogashi »

also I went into great detail bout my complaints against Kamen Rider Ghost in the actual voting thread... At this point, yea, I feel this is the worst Kamen Rider I've ever seen, hands down. You could maybe argue to me that it's not the absolute worst in terms of technical errors or the like, but it'd be a damn hard sell. Even comparing it to shows whose whole writing and directing staff were changed mid season, this just feels like the worst. I cannot think of a time I've had less enjoyment of a Kamen Rider series. Ryuki had some fun fights and would have been fine if not for the plot reset card. Wizard had huge flaws and wasted potential but I loved the acting of the main cast in that. The first half of Hibiki was powerful enough that I could deal with the weaker second half. I actively like Faiz but I know it can be a bit divisive a series. This, Ghost... Getting through a lot of these episodes has been pure pain The Rider characters has no pinpointable personalities, the ganma world's motivations and attitude change rapidly within the same episodes, the messages a lot of these episodes send are worrisome when I think about this being aimed at kids and I mean both intentional messages and 'we didn't mean this to be a message' moments that still speak volumes. The historical facts are often wrong, or so trimmed down to generics as to leave out any of the fun of those figures. but... Like I said I go in to more details in the poll thread.
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