KR Build 01 released

A genius Rider who builds everything.
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Ratings

Poll ended at Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:39 pm

☆☆☆☆☆
26
53%
☆☆☆☆
14
29%
☆☆☆
6
12%
☆☆
0
No votes
3
6%
 
Total votes: 49
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by Renigami »

VerusMaya II wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:47 pm...see page 2...
Ok. But here is where I am arguing about explicit labels.

If Love is Love, then what is the secondary difference outside of a very strong like? The label of hetero-relationships and homo-relationships very well by our own language is a combinational "hardware" preference on an intimate level; in your post that is emotional impulses.

Kamen Rider for me at its core is about a hero, who NEVER wanted to be one - being tossed aside with artifacts of an organization's ability and means - and then turning around to then fight for what that Rider deems overall right (in his world view). Whether or not the Rider succeeds (and seldom not succeed - which would provide an interesting end) is up to each interpretation of a rider. The past several riders have hints here and there; but much like Love versus Like, those shows never approach such a connection outside of expository labels (ones that yours and Take's posts suggest in outright labeling our hero).

If you wish to have kids make their own connections, do not push such labels - because that leads to explicit discrimination. And that is something I think we can agree on. Note in my parent post spurning this is that I DO NOT MIND if such things are thrown in. But I am giving a potential on how it can go awry with the explicit exception handling.

This is what I find why motorcycles get a bad reputation here in the United States, where as such strong Love/Like connotations do not exist elsewhere because of that initial explicit "label" in media. I also give blame on the ganster/ghetto culture as to why things like Black Lives Matter spurned, because that rap mentality is in my view the same as that whole comedic gay debacle is in allegory. It is at this time where there is no "normalization" fall back, and such tropes and memes propagate and linger.... Which is why I don't like memes in such ways at all.

I remain critical - because the show gives me that chance. A good show - never gives me that chance as it is enough for me to be convinced of what theater is there to not invoke questioning.
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by ice_leaf »

Hello! Long time follower of subs, first time forum post.

I want to start with that I've been a fan of TV-Nihon since about OOO-Fourze, so a few years already. I've always enjoyed the extra work and flair that's put in on all the series, it really immerses me!

However, I've recently had some thoughts, and now I've seen this:
Lunagel wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:08 am Before someone mentions it, yes, we're going off the official stuff for Furu Bottles because a) furu means "to shake" and b) those bottles aren't exactly full.
Decisions like this have been grating me lately.

Are you sure you should go with "Furu Bottle," when literally EVERYONE else uses "Full Bottle?" I don't want to "all-the-other-reindeer," it's just when the TV Asahi website and toy catalogues uses "Full Bottle" in english text, why not go with it?

I don't know japanese, but I know enough that romanization and translating can be difficult while also staying true to the meaning of the words. So I can understand going with "Jyuohger" instead of "Zyuohger," and look past going with "Kyuuranger" over "Kyuranger." "Vortec" in Build sort of seems more reasonable compaired to "Boltech," and I can forgive using the japanese constellation names in Kyuuranger, even though using the english names would be perfectly acceptable.

What I can not stand for is deliberately ignoring names and phrases used by the actual creators!

It felt weird, how the "Seiza/Say the" pun from Kyuuranger has been completely avoided or never even acknowledged (to my recollection) in the subs, despite it being all over promotional material and inside the show itself, while an in-joke reference to Pokémon (with "Dragon Ascent") between the subtitle-staff is okay. It's contradictory!

It's like... there's a guy named Wiliem, yet you insist on saying "William" against his wishes because that's what you think it should be and it's the more likely name to have, inspite of all other people and all his legal documents using "Wiliem!"
A bit hyperbolic, but this is how it feels like to me, just rude to everyone involved.

So I respectfully implore TV-Nihon to use "Full Bottle," to acknowledge the pun and be done with it. Because I am a fan, and I don't want any reasons to stop being a fan.

... sorry for the cranky rant, names and spelling them are somewhat of a sore spot for me.
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by Phoenix512 »

Well we actually decided to use Full Bottle from this point forward. The Empty Bottle reference is what convince us to change it.

The Seiza/Say thing has been brought up in QC before. It wasn't ignored but I let takenoko to say why Seiza was used in the end. I'm pretty sure Dragon Ascent wasn't meant to be a Pokemon reference at all. Kyuuranger has two "u"s instead of one so you can properly pronounce it.
Barim wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:16 pm Decent start to the season.

First Sentai and now Kamen Rider going into overly obvious alternative reality mode through back-story that cannot be reconciled with past series. Intentional?

Also, any word on why the broadcast time is shifting? Considering the amount of actual humans killed by the protagonist in just this first episode, I could understand if the shift was to accommodate a slightly older intended audience down the line.
First, all Sentai and Heisei Kamen Riders aren't meant to be interlocked together. I really blame PR for this way of thinking that every series needs to be connected along with all the crossover movies.

The broadcast time is shifting because TV-Asahi is using the time-slots to debut a news show which Kyuuranger will be after Build.
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by Lunagel »

ice_leaf wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:21 am Are you sure you should go with "Furu Bottle," when literally EVERYONE else uses "Full Bottle?" I don't want to "all-the-other-reindeer," it's just when the TV Asahi website and toy catalogues uses "Full Bottle" in english text, why not go with it?
Cause honestly? The bottle's not full, and the whole point of the silly thing is that you shake it to use it. It seems to me like the shaking is more important than it being full. Ultimately when there's a pun on an item we have to use multiple times, then there's always a choice. You can either straight translate it or try to shove in the pun somehow. Any way you do it someone gets disappointed.
ice_leaf wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:21 am What I can not stand for is deliberately ignoring names and phrases used by the actual creators!
So should we have used "Gord Drive", "Amazon Alfa" and "Gollira" as well? I've said this before and I'll say it again: Toei are not native English speakers. They don't need to be since they're trying to appeal to 5 year olds whose English level maybe hits as high as "This is a pen." if you're lucky.

"Oh see there's TV-Nihon saying they're above Toei again! Acting like they're better than the official source!"

In terms of English, absolutely yes. We are native English speakers translating for an English-speaking audience. We're going to use what makes the most sense, what's easiest for someone to understand. Sometimes that matches up and sometimes it doesn't. And I know there are people who think the official English is the end-all-be-all of the argument. And you are totally free to use whatever spelling you want when you're writing it, we won't stop you.
ice_leaf wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:21 am It felt weird, how the "Seiza/Say the" pun from Kyuuranger has been completely avoided or never even acknowledged (to my recollection) in the subs, despite it being all over promotional material and inside the show itself, while an in-joke reference to Pokémon (with "Dragon Ascent") between the subtitle-staff is okay. It's contradictory!
Does this pun really need to be acknowledged? English speakers can clearly hear it, so it's pretty obvious what the pun is. And the Pokemon reference isn't actually a reference. The attack name is exactly the same in Kyuuranger and Pokemon so we stole their translation. It's not a joke.
ice_leaf wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:21 am It's like... there's a guy named Wiliem, yet you insist on saying "William" against his wishes because that's what you think it should be and it's the more likely name to have, inspite of all other people and all his legal documents using "Wiliem!"
A bit hyperbolic, but this is how it feels like to me, just rude to everyone involved.
This is totally petty but look at all these variants of the name "William". Names and pronunciations are going to change between languages to make it easier for the native speakers to pronounce them. But this is off topic.
ice_leaf wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:21 am So I respectfully implore TV-Nihon to use "Full Bottle," to acknowledge the pun and be done with it. Because I am a fan, and I don't want any reasons to stop being a fan.
Writing "Furu" and you hearing "Full" seems to be acknowledging the pun. But you may step away from your keyboard and relax, we've decided to go with Full for the series as it was pointed out that there are "Empty" bottles as well.
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by takenoko »

>However, I've recently had some thoughts, and now I've seen this:
Lunagel wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:08 am Before someone mentions it, yes, we're going off the official stuff for Furu Bottles because a) furu means "to shake" and b) those bottles aren't exactly full.
Decisions like this have been grating me lately.

First, let me start by saying that we have decided to go with Full Bottle. We're open to change, we just need a convincing argument behind it. In this case, I was looking at the official site, and discovered that the bottles that Build uses to capture monsters are called Empty Bottles. So there's an obvious Full/Empty Bottle dichotomy going on.

But let me try to address your other points as well. I'll start by saying we don't make decisions like this to just be contrarian. (Well, not JUST to be contrarian.) But we make them because we genuinely believe this is the most fitting translation for this or that example. We're not making these decisions to piss our or fans or make people not want to watch our subs. That's just bad policy.

>Are you sure you should go with "Furu Bottle," when literally EVERYONE else uses "Full Bottle?" I don't want to "all-the-other-reindeer," it's just when the TV Asahi website and toy catalogues uses "Full Bottle" in english text, why not go with it?

For me, I wasn't a translator for this series, but there was a segment with Build in Kyuu. I looked up the phrase and it's Furu Botoru in katanana. I think, "Okay, so if it's straight English that'd be Full Bottle. But what else is there to consider?" I see him do the shaking motion, and go "Oh, Furu means To Shake in Japanese. Not knowing about the Empty Bottle bit, to me it seems like Shake Bottle makes more sense." So I wrote Shake Bottle in my translation. For a different translator, or if given a different context, or in this case, had a different piece of critical information, maybe they'd think Full Bottle makes more sense.

>So I can understand going with "Jyuohger" instead of "Zyuohger," and look past going with "Kyuuranger" over "Kyuranger." "Vortec" in Build sort of seems more reasonable compaired to "Boltech," and I can forgive using the japanese constellation names in Kyuuranger, even though using the english names would be perfectly acceptable.

Thanks, appreciate it!

>What I can not stand for is deliberately ignoring names and phrases used by the actual creators!

In this case, sometimes the webpage creations can be less than definitive. The guy writing their webpage or doing their ads or whatever might not necessarily have direct access to the writer.

>It felt weird, how the "Seiza/Say the" pun from Kyuuranger has been completely avoided or never even acknowledged (to my recollection) in the subs, despite it being all over promotional material and inside the show itself, while an in-joke reference to Pokémon (with "Dragon Ascent") between the subtitle-staff is okay. It's contradictory!

Was there official stuff for Say The? Seiza just made more sense to me because stars/constellations. In this case, it made more sense thematically. Plus it's Seiza Blaster セイザブラスター. I think if it were Say The it'd be spelled with the long a or Sei Zaa?

>So I respectfully implore TV-Nihon to use "Full Bottle," to acknowledge the pun and be done with it. Because I am a fan, and I don't want any reasons to stop being a fan.

No need to apologize. Always appreciate feedback, as long as its posed in a polite fashion!
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by takenoko »

>If Love is Love, then what is the secondary difference outside of a very strong like? The label of hetero-relationships and homo-relationships very well by our own language is a combinational "hardware" preference on an intimate level; in your post that is emotional impulses.

I honestly don't know what you're going for. Would you be against it if the main character were in love with the heroine instead?

A story is just a story. Two guys getting together shouldn't be the plot point that's too far in a story where you find Pandora's Box on Mars.

One of the degradations in modern Rider stories is the lack of any humanity in any of them. We have Ex-Aid. Emu's got no friends and no girlfriend. Hiiro, he has a girlfriend that we see him act like a jerk to for 5 minutes then she's killed off. Taiga who lives with an underage girl in a platonic relationship. If I drew a relation chart in Ex-Aid, what would I have? Stuff like that takes away from stories, because stories are fundamentally about people and their relations to each other.

Yeah, we're here weekly to watch Build punch a monster in the face. But action's like pornography. You have to create the story, characters, and relationship context to make you care, otherwise it's just emotionless action.

Also, don't hate on gays.
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by Catastrophe »

I'm going to call it a Cronut Bottle.

Oh shit. Wrong show.
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by Barim »

Phoenix512 wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:58 am First, all Sentai and Heisei Kamen Riders aren't meant to be interlocked together. I really blame PR for this way of thinking that every series needs to be connected along with all the crossover movies.

I am aware of that, but things were always left fluid enough so little to no explanation was needed for cross-overs, while also sidestepping the issue, why don't they just all team-up during the show and defeat the new evil empire in 1 episode. 9Ranger had to go out of its way to explain the Deka cross-over by breaking the boundaries of space and time. The TQGers just got on a train...
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by Go-On Macaroni »

takenoko wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:19 amWas there official stuff for Say The?
There were magazine scans that said, "SAY THE CHANGE" in English.
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Seiza just made more sense to me because stars/constellations. In this case, it made more sense thematically. Plus it's Seiza Blaster セイザブラスター. I think if it were Say The it'd be spelled with the long a or Sei Zaa?
Just for discussion's sake, if that's true, I'd want to know from Toei why Tsurugi's was "C'mon the Change" then. I still think they made his call to play off of "Say the Change".
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by ice_leaf »

Haha, wow, I was really lousy, wasn't I?

I'm sorry, lunagel and takenoko. It's no real excuse, but I wasn't feeling well and not thinking straight. Now that I've rested a bit and cleared my head, I was going a bit overboard and being overemotional. It's good to learn more and know stuff a little better!

Thanks for handing my ass to me!

Now, instead of being a jerk, let's talk Build:
It's a strong start! Better then Ghost's and Ex-Aid's first episode, and I feel I don't have to wait for the show to get good. Most of the characters left an instant impression, and I'm hooked on the intrigue of 10 years ago.

It is peculiar how recently one of female characters are extra-normal and somehow related to the gimmick of the year. Gonna bet Misora is something Smash-y aswell.

Looking forward to future releases!
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by takenoko »

Nah, nah, you were fine. No offense was taken and it was a good jumping off point for us to clarify a few points. Just chalk it up as a learning experience for all around.
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by D_B »

As always, HUGE thank you to the wonderful TVNihon crew.
That said... I think Build has done it. Instead of occasionally skipping a season every now and then because it didn't "do it" for me, I think I am finished.

The subs are FANTASTIC, the effort ya'll put into every single episode is a labor of love, and I have watched entire seasons of shows I otherwise had little to no interest in at all simply because you were subbing it. HUGE love to each and every one of you.
But the attempts at humor, another armor suit that makes me want to crawl under something made of cringe, while I am cringing... the show is just not for me. It's not a trackable pattern at this point, it's a hard, cold reality.

Thank you all for the incredible work. I wish you all the best. I'll check back in a decade or so.
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by Renigami »

takenoko wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:38 am ..

Also, don't hate on gays.
Where did I make such an explicit definition mention of the word with relation to myself? This is what is wrong with short view comprehension in that I also emphasized I DO NOT MIND IF IT IS THERE. Having no problems with it is different from hating.

I have problems with stereotyping, and obviously you continue to use such with the explicit word "gay".

In regards to relationships - again - I do not have a problem if it is such. You are again tied up in wanting to bring explicit definitional words which in my prior post would bring immense discrimination (positive or negative) which will override what a Rider show is mainly about - conflict.

Here, you really are putting my hate somewhere else, where most of it is really plot related and trope related of Build's first episode.
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by VerusMaya II »

Go-On Macaroni wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:13 am
takenoko wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:19 amWas there official stuff for Say The?
There were magazine scans that said, "SAY THE CHANGE" in English.
Spoiler
Image

Seiza just made more sense to me because stars/constellations. In this case, it made more sense thematically. Plus it's Seiza Blaster セイザブラスター. I think if it were Say The it'd be spelled with the long a or Sei Zaa?
Just for discussion's sake, if that's true, I'd want to know from Toei why Tsurugi's was "C'mon the Change" then. I still think they made his call to play off of "Say the Change".
I think this is a case of, take and Luna and our other translators work full time jobs and don't wanna come home and obsessively scour every piece of toku-related media recently released. They're working with the knowledge given to them with the show, which is often just any graphics in the episodes themselves and the captions provided (and occasionally a glimpse at the website to clarify things). Is "Say the Change" anywhere in those things I just listed? Probably not - in which case they only become aware of the dual language pun after the fact.
In an unfortunate turn of events, Tsurugi's henshin call made it even more obvious and made us look the fool. Shit happens! That's okay. Even so, I think showing it as "Seiza Change" is the preferred option. Native English speakers can still hear its resemblance to "Say the", and if it takes until Tsurugi's call to slap them in the face to get the joke, then that's alright too! Sometimes those delayed revelations can be fun. But a native English speaker won't get the "Seiza" joke if they only read "Say the" because they don't have the knowledge base of Japanese to work with.



Thank you to everyone who has made such supportive posts. There are like 4 simultaneous conversations going on in this thread, but rest assured we appreciate all of them! We love hearing from you, even if an uneasy mood makes your post a little more argumentative than you intend. :)
In case anyone else has merely skimmed the walls of text but for some reason sees this: Yes, we have decided to go with Full Bottle. It's only episode 1 and the first CM pack released, so things are still very fluid.

I'm gonna make a separate post to reply to Renigami. :D
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Re: KR Build 01 released

Post by VerusMaya II »

Renigami wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:20 am Ok. But here is where I am arguing about explicit labels.

If Love is Love, then what is the secondary difference outside of a very strong like? The label of hetero-relationships and homo-relationships very well by our own language is a combinational "hardware" preference on an intimate level; in your post that is emotional impulses.
[...]
If you wish to have kids make their own connections, do not push such labels - because that leads to explicit discrimination. And that is something I think we can agree on. Note in my parent post spurning this is that I DO NOT MIND if such things are thrown in. But I am giving a potential on how it can go awry with the explicit exception handling.
We may have slightly misunderstood eachother here! I'm not sitting here asking Toei to write an episode where Sento declares "Hello, I am homosexual." I agree, with a qualifier, that that kind of explicit labeling is not the correct choice here. I'd like to remind that I am writing all of my analyses and preferences from a America-centric viewpoint. I have no other experience; I cannot claim to know the political climate of Japan. Therefore, it's safer to say explicit labels and declarations do not belong in a child's show at this point in time (this does not mean forever).

Which is why in my previous post I only referred to emotional responses and open-to-interpretation dialogue. There is a subtle difference between a character fighting to defend a friend, and a character fighting to defend a lover. I've been lucky that tokusatsu has been very good at toeing that line for almost its whole existence (hoo boy the amount of subtext in previous entries!). But I'm advocating for them to perhaps put one toe over the line after all these years.

What would that require? Let's say Ryuuga gets caught by the Touto gov again. If Sento were just rescuing a friend, he'd be stressed but all things considered relatively calm (no outward show of excessive emotion). If Sento were rescuing a significant other, or otherwise someone he considers a bit more than just friend, he'd be very stressed and prone to bursts of emotion. Perhaps he'd snap at others ("Don't touch him!"), perhaps he'd cry ("I should have done something more..."). There are many possibilities. :D
Last edited by VerusMaya II on Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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