KR Build 10 released

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Ratings

Poll ended at Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:45 pm

☆☆☆☆☆
20
74%
☆☆☆☆
5
19%
☆☆☆
1
4%
☆☆
0
No votes
1
4%
 
Total votes: 27

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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by Lunagel » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:39 am

Yeah there's not really a reason to use anything else. Cross-Z is silly but it fits (kinda) the katakana so meh

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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by ryujin » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:04 am

Why can't Japan update their characters already, is it way too late or not doable?, specially when they're attempting to spell/make a made up or an actual western name/word, their r/l, n/m and then some share the same characters and it usually ends up like a guessing game, like when you see a character named Shiro (i.e. Suikoden), oh wait, maybe it's Shilo?, or better yet, let's wait for "them" to actually say it so we would know what we're dealing with here or it's actually both lol!

Cross-Z looks and sounds better though :)

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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by takenoko » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:28 am

ryujin wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:04 am
Why can't Japan update their characters already, is it way too late or not doable?, specially when they're attempting to spell/make a made up or an actual western name/word, their r/l, n/m and then some share the same characters and it usually ends up like a guessing game, like when you see a character named Shiro (i.e. Suikoden), oh wait, maybe it's Shilo?, or better yet, let's wait for "them" to actually say it so we would know what we're dealing with here or it's actually both lol!
What do you mean "update their characters"? Are you talking about reformatting their language and dictionary of phonemes?

Or are you talking the way Japanese is romanized into English? If it's the latter, just as there's no perfect way to translate, there's no perfect way of transliterating something out of context. There's some systems better than others, and I sure wish they'd adopt a system that wasn't super old and out of date.

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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by ryujin » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:06 pm

takenoko wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:28 am
What do you mean "update their characters"? Are you talking about reformatting their language and dictionary of phonemes?

Or are you talking the way Japanese is romanized into English? If it's the latter, just as there's no perfect way to translate, there's no perfect way of transliterating something out of context. There's some systems better than others, and I sure wish they'd adopt a system that wasn't super old and out of date.
Yep the latter it is, maybe a way to distinguish their r/l and n/m for starters, but yeah it's their language and their weird take on western words is their own thing like still using Shoe Cream instead of Whipped Cream, that's just nasty lol!, i can read katakana fine but when i see a name with r/l and n/m, it's quite confusing how to pronounce it.

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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by njb » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:23 pm

Lunagel wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:39 am
Yeah there's not really a reason to use anything else. Cross-Z is silly but it fits (kinda) the katakana so meh
There's also speculation that the name is a reference to ZX.
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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by Lunagel » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:47 pm

ryujin wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:06 pm
takenoko wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:28 am
What do you mean "update their characters"? Are you talking about reformatting their language and dictionary of phonemes?

Or are you talking the way Japanese is romanized into English? If it's the latter, just as there's no perfect way to translate, there's no perfect way of transliterating something out of context. There's some systems better than others, and I sure wish they'd adopt a system that wasn't super old and out of date.
Yep the latter it is, maybe a way to distinguish their r/l and n/m for starters, but yeah it's their language and their weird take on western words is their own thing like still using Shoe Cream instead of Whipped Cream, that's just nasty lol!, i can read katakana fine but when i see a name with r/l and n/m, it's quite confusing how to pronounce it.
Uhh, whipped cream is just "nama kuriimu" (fresh cream) or "hoippu" (whip). You're thinking of choux à la crème a.k.a. a cream puff, which is pronounced (in English!) as shuu.

And you're coming at this idea from the wrong direction. There's no need to distinguish r/l in Japanese because they are the same sound. The only reason why it gets confusing in English is because we have no equivalent sound and thus switch between the two similar sounds we do have arbitrarily. R and l are the two liquid consonants in English whereas Japanese and Korean only have the one. Other languages like Russian and Irish have 4 or more. For the normal Japanese viewer, how things are written in English don't matter because it's an afterthought.

We are not the target audience. We do not matter, they do not care. Any English we get is merely there to "look cool" and us arguing about spelling is like a small speck screaming into the void.

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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by takenoko » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:28 pm

Lunagel wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:47 pm
And you're coming at this idea from the wrong direction. There's no need to distinguish r/l in Japanese because they are the same sound. The only reason why it gets confusing in English is because we have no equivalent sound and thus switch between the two similar sounds we do have arbitrarily.
Linguistically, you're the one who has it backwards. In English, we have the phonemes for L and R sounds, but Japanese lacks the phoneme of L in Japanese, so they regard L and R as the same sound. It's lumping the two different phonemes together. Either way isn't wrong, it's just the unique makeup of each language. Not every language shares the same library of phonemes.
Lunagel wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:47 pm
For the normal Japanese viewer, how things are written in English don't matter because it's an afterthought. We are not the target audience. We do not matter, they do not care. Any English we get is merely there to "look cool" and us arguing about spelling is like a small speck screaming into the void.
Basically that.

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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by Lunagel » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:57 pm

takenoko wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:28 pm
Linguistically, you're the one who has it backwards. In English, we have the phonemes for L and R sounds, but Japanese lacks the phoneme of L in Japanese, so they regard L and R as the same sound. It's lumping the two different phonemes together. Either way isn't wrong, it's just the unique makeup of each language. Not every language shares the same library of phonemes.
Not really cause English R uses a rounded mouth with back/mid tongue raised up to back palate and English L lips are more neutral and the tip of tongue to presses against teeth whereas the Japanese r/l sound is kinda an amalgamation of the two, with a neutral lip placement and the tip of the tongue pressed against the front palate. So they don't really have either R *or* L, those are just the two that sound most similar to that phoneme.

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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by takenoko » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:06 pm

In any case, the Japanese phoneme has a catch-all for all those English sounds. So you wouldn't say English doesn't have those sounds. We do, but we recognize the distinction between l and r.

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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by VerusMaya II » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:21 pm

Lunagel wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:47 pm
a small speck screaming into the void.
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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by Lunagel » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:42 pm

takenoko wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:06 pm
In any case, the Japanese phoneme has a catch-all for all those English sounds. So you wouldn't say English doesn't have those sounds. We do, but we recognize the distinction between l and r.
No, I'd say that the Japanese l/r sound is distinct enough from l and r that if you try to use them instead of the l/r sound in Japanese you sound unnatural and it's very clear you're not a native speaker. Phonetically Japanese is close enough to English most of the time that it's not too difficult to pronounce except for the l/r sound, the dzu sound and maybe the h/fu sound.

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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by njb » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:53 pm

It's distinct enough for linguists to assign different symbols for them:

R = /ɹ/
L = /l/
consonant sound of らりるれろ = /ɾ/
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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by takenoko » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:19 am

Hmmm, alright if linguists consider it a different consonant.

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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by ryujin » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:56 pm

Lunagel wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:47 pm
Uhh, whipped cream is just "nama kuriimu" (fresh cream) or "hoippu" (whip). You're thinking of choux à la crème a.k.a. a cream puff, which is pronounced (in English!) as shuu.
I saw this from a show where they teach Japanese girls (idols) to use whipped cream instead of shuu cream, because shuu sounds like shoe in a native English country if they go there, so i used this reference, should have included that on my earlier post, never knew nama and whipped are used as the same though, my bad
Lunagel wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:47 pm
We are not the target audience. We do not matter, they do not care. Any English we get is merely there to "look cool" and us arguing about spelling is like a small speck screaming into the void.
And it basically comes to this

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Re: KR Build 10 released

Post by Revorse » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:18 pm

Lunagel wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:47 pm
Any English we get is merely there to "look cool"
English looks cool to them?

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