KR Zi-O 03 released

It's pronounced Ji Oh. AKA Kamen Rider Double Decade
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Ratings

Poll ended at Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:36 am

☆☆☆☆☆
3
15%
☆☆☆☆
1
5%
☆☆☆
5
25%
☆☆
6
30%
5
25%
 
Total votes: 20
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by Phoenix512 »

Kurokage X wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:13 am So far no continuity errors so yay I guess.
I want to point out how silly this is. The show is trying to make 17 years of Heisei Riders as one timeline when they were originally existed to be self contained. Build had the Skywall thing for 10 years which would have meant that from Den-O to Build there would have been massive walls splitting Japan in three but there isn't from Den-O on. So I'm saying that there will be issues with this and shouldn't expect perfect fitting when it's impossible. Toei is just mashing Rider series together and hoping it will come together as a perfect built puzzle but it wouldn't.
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by takenoko »

Vote Gold Rolex King for the new president.
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by SVNBob »

Gotta admit, I loved that they subverted the standard "out of place newcomers are suddenly enrolled in the protagonist's school/class" trope that tends to show up in every high school based show, even if they did go with the "out of place newcomers start living in the protagonist's house" one.

takenoko wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:53 am Vote Gold Rolex King for the new president.
Better than the Fake Rolex we've got right now...
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by Kurokage X »

takenoko wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:53 am Vote Gold Rolex King for the new president.
I should have trademarked that nickname
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by Sinkuu »

considering the HS setting... Space's eps should be interesting.
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by resop2 »

As Decade would say, I think I have the gist of it. A generous 1 from me. Where did the drive watch come from?
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by Dante ShadowRoadz »

Yeah this thing is turning into a tire-fire. They didn't screw the timeline but they didn't give it any real emphasis on mattering either, and everything feels stagnant and constrained with each scene. Hiiro looks like he's passing a kidney stone more than usual for his cameo, and Emu has zero energy to him. The Drive armor is decent, but if Geiz is just gonna pull new Watches out of his butt every time and they just use it as an excuse to skip over different Riders, there's pretty much no stakes to Sougo "eliminating Riders from the timeline". Unless it's that whole stupid thing like with Decade accidentally saving and befriending Riders instead of destroying them like he was supposed to in order to get their powers.
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by Dark Ren »

Phoenix512 wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:00 am I want to point out how silly this is. The show is trying to make 17 years of Heisei Riders as one timeline when they were originally existed to be self contained. Build had the Skywall thing for 10 years which would have meant that from Den-O to Build there would have been massive walls splitting Japan in three but there isn't from Den-O on. So I'm saying that there will be issues with this and shouldn't expect perfect fitting when it's impossible. Toei is just mashing Rider series together and hoping it will come together as a perfect built puzzle but it wouldn't.
i think there are 2 universes. 1st is where KR Build takes place. 2nd is where all KR take place (world without Evolt / prime universe).

The ending of Build makes Sento go to prime universe, like the Heisei Forever Movie.

Having said that, there is continuity error at Eps 1 when Zi-O came to 1st universe, as it should not existed post 2017. But yeah, fitting 17 world of KR would be impossible
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by Connie_Edogawa »

still need to watch the episode, because it turns out I downloaded the wrong version. the 720 version on the tracker doesn't specify that it's the 720 version.
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by takenoko »

Fixed. Sorry about the inconvenience!
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by OOOKaiser »

Honestly i'm kind of hoping they go for the "oma zi-o is sougo but where he hasn't met geiz and tsukuyumi and somewhere along the line he decided to go on the destructive path. And geiz and tsukuyumi going back in time will change sougo, but it won't change their future. Kind of like in dbz where trunks' future was still ruined by the androids while goku's timeline was changed. I'm still not feeling Zi-O as of now. It's nice to see the actors, but it's nothing special.
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by dancercotillion »

I'm pretty pleased my predictions from the first episode are not quite accurate anymore. Having three factions of time travellers futzing about with Zi-O is interesting. Why are the Timejackers trying to replace Sougo? I think they're from further down the line than 2068, too, that was the impression I got from this episode. Maybe they tried to take over Oma Zi-O's time but he stomped them flat and went nuts in the process? So now they're trying to make their future victory assured by finding a new Zi-O to manipulate?

And yes, what the hell, Geiz? Leave your gimp suit in the dungeon when you go to school, or at least wear a ballgag with the damn thing.
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by Snarkwing »

Phoenix512 wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:00 am
Kurokage X wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:13 am So far no continuity errors so yay I guess.
I want to point out how silly this is. The show is trying to make 17 years of Heisei Riders as one timeline when they were originally existed to be self contained. Build had the Skywall thing for 10 years which would have meant that from Den-O to Build there would have been massive walls splitting Japan in three but there isn't from Den-O on. So I'm saying that there will be issues with this and shouldn't expect perfect fitting when it's impossible. Toei is just mashing Rider series together and hoping it will come together as a perfect built puzzle but it wouldn't.
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Well yes and no. The showa shows weren't self-contained, they had carried on continuity from their earliest days, with the reappearance of the great leader through his many incarnations and then the Rider teamup events bridging them all together, with zero moments of outright contradiction in 20 intermittent years of content. So Ongoing multi-series continuity? For Kamen Rider, That IS the default state.

That 'ended' with Agito, when the staff for Kuuga and Agito said that it was best to treat Agito as occurring in another universe due to Agito's story being potentially insulting towards Kuuga's due to Kuuga bearing a message about ending a cycle of escalation and violence...and Agito was all about the continuance of a cycle of escalation of violence with it's own lensman arms race invovling evolving humans and their threat to a god-like entity. This was not helped that in Agito's early episodes it treated Kuuga as Canon to IT, explicitly saying it was happening two years after Kuuga ended, and used terminology relating from and referencing Kuuga.
Though by the timestamps in Agito's early content, it started weeks after Kuuga did.
So originally? Yeah, meant to carry on in canon, but realized too late how the series was developing would draw open offense. Probably because the producer for the first half of the show didn't care and expected Agito to be the franchise's ending. No, really.

But yeah, that's then what they operated under in Heisei for quite some time; each series should be standalone so-as to not accidentally be offensive in their content to that of another. it didn't really work as fans then went about making the connections and comparisons anyways, and that forced isolation kept them from being able to do crossover content like Super sentai's versus films without the series then making everyone ask a LOT of questions about how that was possible. See The Ryuki vs Agito V-Cinema for that snarl.

But then after Climax Deka had the Kiva crossover as an ice-breaker, Toei decided to do the whole world-fusion thing with Decade to allow them to cross over. From that point, everything was handwaved as now being the same canon. This filled the prior plotholes...though also introduced ONE new one thanks to Kabuto's story making Shibuya devastated by the worm meteor. one could say it wasn't all of Shibuya that got smashed up so it being visited at any point during kuuga Through Hibiki and then den-O and Kiva isn't a stark conflict, but still it's the one remaining point of contention.

But then we get to W Through Build, where everything IS One big Long canon with very few points of contradiction at all...Because they took the time to explain or showcase how they all related TO one-another. A Guy on Tumblr broke this down for people, even showcasing how Many events in W/Fourze/Drive/Ghost/Ex-aid/Build don't work without it as at points the teamups included something essential to their bigger pictures like introducing new bits of their canon story that ended up being important later (Rocket states, The kaiser system, the roidmude count, Dan Kuroto's development of kamen Rider chronicle that needed The Heisei rider data, etc), But basically the only points of explicit contradiction of canon between series--as opposed to minor errors like Ghost's early-bird cameo that came from not knowing the details of the next show yet--in THE LAST NINE YEARS Have been the spring events, Movie War Core and movie war Genesis.

And even those last two are debate-able, as Movie war core works okay if you see the OOO portion of it as occuring over an extended length of time behind-the-scenes of the main show, and Movie war genesis was Retconned in Drive's Novel to then fit more properly.

But with those contradictions, All of them have the same things in common between them: they had no involvement from the writing staffs of the main series they premiered as part of. Toshiki Inoue wrote no other content for OOO beyond The OOO section of movie war Core, Makoto hayashi has written nothing for kamen Rider before or since Movie war Genesis, and Shouji Yonemura who wrote Kabuto, Some hibiki Content and the 999/1000 franchise episodes in OOO has done nothing else for the main TV series, so didn't know about any other show to get things right in "Let's go Kamen Rider" or any of the super hero taisen films. And in the later's case, was overseen by a Producer who's said none of that matters and you shouldn't care.
that same producer is now in Charge of Zi-O, and the show likewise is acting as if you shouldn't care. As if all of that effort they made the last Nine years to connect all of them didn't matter. IS disrespecting and dismissing what they did to MAKE them fit.

Because...they actually did endeavor to make that Puzzle fit together if you were paying attention. Riku Sanjou (W/Fourze/Kyoryuger/Drive), Gen Urobuchi (Gaim) and Yuya Takahashi (Ex-aid, Heisei generations final) are notorious stickler's for continuity as showcased both here and in their other works. They treat it as sacrosanct, clarifying points others would skip over or Ignore so things DO work towards fitting together seamlessly, and putting in the effort to make sure the connections are without significant fault. It is why they are good storytellers, they make sure their stories are without any major holes in them.
Hell, gen Urobuchi came to people attention because Fate/Zero, the prequel series he wrote for fate/stay night? Has Zero continuity errors or contradictions, and better informed the weaker aspects of the original story to shore it up. that's why cross-series continuity is a good thing, these common elements and continuance of a story do more to inform and make it better.

So with the work in Build done to first clarify that it was set on a Parallel Universe thanks to Heisei generations final, then getting the world fusion Idea from the events of that film to conclude Build's story with it's main characters the survivors of a world that now never was, they paved the way for everything to just be delivered to the next anniversary show on one silver platter. Just skirt around going to Build's Timeline since it just ended and now never existed (which people would know this if they watched Build's finale), and they would've been Golden.

Zi-O then decided to do the opposite of that, and thanks to episode 2.5 and interviews about the show...said that None of that care, time, effort or investment mattered. That it was not worthy of being saved, that it was not worthy of being protected or maintained, and they could not be paid to give a damn. The show is going to be full of plotholes they could not be bothered with fixing as they don't want to put the effort in, and want you to not care about that as others did.

Obviously, for people who became invested in that grand ongoing story and respected and praised the effort of these writing staffs in making that effort, it is going to piss them off.

Which, including the past series cameos and continuity or not, is horrible storytelling for a time travel series. They're saying that how time is changed Doesn't matter in a show that is all about changing time or correcting time. You don't do that with such a story device. I don't think it ever has been, not with something meant to be good. A good Time travel story requires you to research and be aware of the times you're going to visit or call upon for your story, and This one shows little interest in doing that.
Honestly i'm kind of hoping they go for the "oma zi-o is sougo but where he hasn't met geiz and tsukuyumi and somewhere along the line he decided to go on the destructive path. And geiz and tsukuyumi going back in time will change sougo, but it won't change their future. Kind of like in dbz where trunks' future was still ruined by the androids while goku's timeline was changed. I'm still not feeling Zi-O as of now. It's nice to see the actors, but it's nothing special.
That's Mutliverse theory, where changes to time don't result in what happened being erased, but the present time moving on another track to the future. Which would explain how they visit a world that now never was Like build's...but in concert, that would then mean that Sougo should never encounter any of the 'Another riders', as those changes to time by everyone here would then splinter into other new timelines that wouldn't touch the main one Sougo's normally in, or the one all these people come from.

In comparison, Cell in DBZ going back to the past made sense as the timeline he came from was on a different Track Than the one Trunk's was currently on, so they both affected ongoing events to change the track their past was on in the same era. Even if cell showed up a bit earlier than him his involvement didn't change anything yet, so until he got going there was no shifting in the track. Once he did, then things were made to be different, and we all saw the final results play out in the final lap Resulting in the main timeline future, Cell's Track where Trunks killed 17/18 before he could absorb them so had to go back which is never seen again, and finally Trunks' revised track where he ended all of Doctor Gero's Creations. Each Track is a different branch only connected by how people from each branch directly interacted with each-other from a common stem.

Whereas the Time jackers are going to different era's where the cascading effects of their screwing with time Should by mutliverse theory...change nothing or affect nothing. if they are having an active effect in changing history long before they show up in Sougo's time...then it can't be multiverse theory as that change should branch things long before they get to a point where Tsukiyomi and Geiz are interacting with him.
Stealing the powers and Histories of the Riders in 2018 to create the another riders? Yeah, it would work by that model as they're all trying to affect and change that point in time to shift it to another track--and there would thus be NO Continuity errors for people to complain about either as that would be the simple way to not screw this up--but that's not what they're doing by having Zi-O need to go back in time to defeat the Anothers in the periods they were created in.

If the show were working under actual rules instead of dismissing and insulting the notion that rules for a time travel story matter as presented in episode 2.5 (they do if you're trying to do it right, see every good time travel story ever made), then It should be going with The the Causal Loop model for time travel. I explained This in the episode 1 thread, but it's when a time traveler goes back in time, and then causes or starts the events that then lead to what they came back to change in the first place. IF Future Sougo created the Zi-O tech for world conquest, then Tsukiyomi/Geiz and the others go back to stop it while Woz goes back to maintain Zi-O's rise to power and potentially start it in motion early. Their effects then cause a timeline that superceeds the previous one that then lead to Oma Zi-O's rise, and the cycle starts all over again. In this model, all of the changes to the timeline would then be accounted for as recorded events Sougo then plays part in to 'correct' things before his rise to power. The changes the Time jacker's make, to use a different metaphor, being small inlets or tributaries in a larger river that then rejoin the larger whole. them only being momentary disruptions before things are corrected.
For example, You see the beginning lap of a stable causal loop in the first "back to the future" Movie. Marty Mcfly changes things in the past that results in a better future for him, and his changes to the timeline are then maintained by another iteration of himself as he never changed the events that allowed him to travel back in time in the first place. That covers both the beginning lap of the causal loop, and it's maintained form. As from the perspective of the Marty who grew up in this timeline, he's preserving everything as he knows it to have happened, and who he is as a person has not changed significantly to change the timeline further so he just ends up doing what his first iteration did.
The problem with that, is a causal loop once started is a closed circuit. You can't change things in it as everything you do is then accounted for, and you can't dimension jump as in the Multiverse theory. Thus in THIS model, visiting Build's earth in 2017 (before the world-fusion) is still a significant plothole, The ride watches should not be stealing the time/power/memories of the other riders (and there was no real need to do that in the first place Either since power cloning has ALWAYS been a thing in Kamen Rider), And Zi-O then becomes a "you can't Fight your fate" Story where Sougo Will need to become Oma Zi-O to set everything in motion so the show is then trying to make you root for the genocidal madman. None of which are good things.
Last edited by Go-On Macaroni on Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: I should've tagged this wall of text back when it was relevant to.
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by dancercotillion »

Sir, this is a McDonald's drive-thru.
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Re: KR Zi-O 03 released

Post by Go-On Macaroni »

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Snarkwing wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:37 amThat 'ended' with Agito, when the staff for Kuuga and Agito said that it was best to treat Agito as occurring in another universe due to Agito's story being potentially insulting towards Kuuga's due to Kuuga bearing a message about ending a cycle of escalation and violence...and Agito was all about the continuance of a cycle of escalation of violence with it's own lensman arms race invovling evolving humans and their threat to a god-like entity.
I've never heard it was due to the cycle of violence being escalated, you have a source on that? How I've always heard it was due to the Agito staff not wanting to intrude on Godai's struggles. And if they separated them, then Shouichi could tell his story without overlapping Godai's or something like that.
Because...they actually did endeavor to make that Puzzle fit together if you were paying attention. Riku Sanjou (W/Fourze/Kyoryuger/Drive), Gen Urobuchi (Gaim) and Yuya Takahashi (Ex-aid, Heisei generations final) are notorious stickler's for continuity as showcased both here and in their other works. They treat it as sacrosanct, clarifying points others would skip over or Ignore so things DO work towards fitting together seamlessly, and putting in the effort to make sure the connections are without significant fault. It is why they are good storytellers, they make sure their stories are without any major holes in them.
I'm pretty sure that would be more up to the producers to choose whether the film is canon than the writers? Like, the writers are important but especially nowadays, the Producers have a lot more clout being the ones who directly talk to Toei and Bandai, detail what the forms and mecha do, etc. So, I can more believe they just told the writers to write something in a way that won't bother the main show than the writers doing it themselves.

And man, are we really gonna claim that Riku Sanjo's writing has no holes to it? I mean, I do like his writing at times but... are we ignoring Wakana turning evil in 3.5 seconds? Shinnosuke claiming he'd save the Roidmudes then laying on his butt while Medic and Brain were getting tortured by Banno? Mach's whole character! Chase and.... his whole creepy fling with Angel Roidmude?!?! (Just as an FYI: he wasn't the head writer on Fourze, people keep mistaking him for it but the head writer was Nakashima Kazuki. Sanjo just wrote sparse episodes such as unfortunately the Gemini arc)
Hell, gen Urobuchi came to people attention because Fate/Zero, the prequel series he wrote for fate/stay night? Has Zero continuity errors or contradictions, and better informed the weaker aspects of the original story to shore it up. that's why cross-series continuity is a good thing, these common elements and continuance of a story do more to inform and make it better.
I thought he became a big name due to Madoka? Wasn't Fate/Zero a set of Light Novels prior to its anime? Regarding Gaim though, he only wrote the "canon" episodes leaving all the side stuff to sub-writers like Mouri and Hageneya Jin. I think supervising the finale was the furthest he went into the latter but he still didn't mind too much that Ryouma once cut his brain open or that Demushu walked into the human world but the next episode focused on some soccer nonsense.
The problem with that, is a causal loop once started is a closed circuit. You can't change things in it as everything you do is then accounted for, and you can't dimension jump as in the Multiverse theory.
You can, your name just has to be Hououin Kyouma!!
Last edited by Go-On Macaroni on Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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