Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

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Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by takenoko »

Last year it was the job wars, this year it's swordsmen infighting. Why does it feel like we're in the same holding pattern?

Zero-One was a great, but not perfect show, but I think most people agree the momentum took a dive when they killed any main plot advancement with the filler job wars plot. Characters really didn't interact with each other, it mostly focused on Amatsu Gai who was mostly an asshole before getting a redemption later in the series

Now Saber's story is stuck in a limbo of him and Yuuri, sorta doing a lot of nothing. Who knew that killing off Calibur was the thing that would introduce a chapter where the main conflict comes from Yuuri and Touma chasing after human-Megiddo hybrids while his friends sulked in Southern Base, only popping out one or two at a time to interact, before going home to mutter and say the same damn thing to each other. It's like the southern base swordsmen (aren't there supposed to be more?) have been replaced with the laziest villain versions of themselves

The reuse of catchphrases in place of having actual conversations feels KyuuRangeresque in incompetence and annoyingness. The only real joy to be had is Mei's antics and Yuuri acting like a fish out of water guy

A simple conversation would end all of this, but instead of that, they just fall back on their old positions and use any prompt to violently start attacking each other. Were these guys truly comrade in arms and friends for the first quarter of the series?

The series had so much potential. It's got a cool concept, the designs were neat and a book theme is cool. Even like the music was good. But the writing sucks the stars from the sky and it's hard into this series when the story and characters just aren't there

I know I was complaining before, but the writing has gotten so many degrees worse. But what do you guys think?
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Re: Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by TheNinjaDragon »

At this point, I'm just kicking back with popcorn in hand, waiting for Toei to pull a Bleach: The Thousand Year War and say that Ren was destined to die to fulfill an asspull destiny about Armageddon. Then Touma gets his final form out of nowhere, dies and revives in the same episode (or just pull a W/Double), then beats the final boss in one hit. Afterwards, Takuro Fukuda does this in the breakroom to celebrate.

Truly sorry for putting all of this into your guys' heads, but better to prepare for disappointment then have your hopes crushed. If nothing else, this series is at least still more interesting than Ryusoulger (even if I actually liked that show myself).
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Re: Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by kevinlafriday »

I used to think the same. Until i changed my mindset and started making Kiramager my "main" weekly watch. Everything is still bad, yes, but at least i'm not disappointing myself with my usual KR show expectation.
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Re: Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by Lunagel »

I find myself looking forward more and more to Mei and Yuuri's antics, if only because they break up the utter slog of watching the swordsmen go around in a circle for the 5th time.
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Re: Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by Bomyne »

I admit there are times i just don’t get the community.

I for one am loving Saber. While his friends no longer trusting him is a bit weird, i think Touma needing to win back their trust is a good plot point.

Speculationwise, i think we’re going to come to a climax in the friendship trust story very soon.

I do think it’d dragging on a little, but I respectfully disagree that the writing sucks. So far i would rate Saber... probably 8th highest post-decade season. (There’s been 12)

Just my two cents anyway.
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Re: Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by takenoko »

That's good actually. I'm glad people are enjoying it and aren't just being super negative about it like me. It proves that it's worth working on the show since someone out there likes it lol
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Re: Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by yami0204 »

I personally am enjoying both Saber and Kiramager immensely. I've always been one for Kamen Riders with fantasy elements, so it hits my sweet spot. Like, yeah, the writing could use a little improvement, but it's also a children's show and I come to expect this kind of fair in kids media. I look forward to it every week, even if it's not as happy-go-lucky as Kiramager. (Kiramager is doing wonders for my depression and I thank its existence immensely.)

There's something to be said about how the plot a bit reflects the real world, at least here in America, where people have become reliant on false narratives to the point where they can't even trust their friends or families anymore. Perhaps in that way it feels a bit... poor in writing, but Touma is having to deprogram his friends like they've joined a cult because the whole swordsman lifestyle is pretty cult-like. Touma is an outsider who came in, interpreted things differently, and now has been labeled an enemy. Is the writing particularly smart in handling this subject? That might take more time, but I for one do not feel that the series is doing poorly considering that kind of deprogramming can take a long time.

My only quibble is that the villains aren't that great. I really wish we could have more time with them, but I know Saikawa Koji has another Identity V Stage to do soon enough, so Zoos won't be around for too much longer.
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Re: Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by takenoko »

For sure. I'd totally die if someone put a gun to my head and asked me to tell the difference between the three Megiddo commanders

Edit: I think one thing that's hard for me is that there's not really anyone I like out of the characters. I used to like Rintarou because he seemed like an earnest character and Mei for her antics (and Buster too, I guess). But now Rintarou and Buster are off doing their dumb Southern Base stuff.

And Yuuri feels like a poor replacement for Rintarou. "What if we had someone EVEN MORE out of touch than Rintarou, but with no backstory or relationship to Mei and Touma"

It's tough having the main plot sidelined because Touma bores me on his own
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Re: Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by Dengar »

So uh... While I can't really join in on this particular conversation. I just want to express that this does not bode well and I feel even less inclined to pick the series back up.
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Re: Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by ViRGE »

As someone who opted not to pick up this series (I find the theme completely uninteresting) I find it interesting to hear that Saber is going through a spell of infighting. While this series may be particularly bad at it, it's not something that's new to Kamen Rider. Rather I'd argue that the franchise as a whole has struggled off and on with the problem for years.

In all of the series that start with a big ensemble of Riders, at some point there's an arc where they all end up fighting. And all too frequently, it's for stupid reasons. Ex-Aid comes to mind in particular; at one point everyone gets the idiot ball and attacks Emu. Why? Well it really wasn't very important in the long run.

It's something that's always struck me as a Toei mandate: you have these expensive suits, now use them before bugging us for money for new monsters. Basically, it's the toku equivalent of filler, where the plot gets paused and spending gets trimmed for however long the arc dictates it. And it usually goes over just about as well as you'd expect.:|

I do think a strong writer can spackle over the biggest flaws this brings on. But weaker writers - or shows where the writing is split up among a large pool of writers - are in trouble. It's legitimately hard to create compelling conflicts that can't be talked out, but are still so important that they're worth fighting over. Even western writers struggle with a variant of this when it comes to cell phones; communication diffuses conflict.
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Re: Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by takenoko »

That's an interesting point. It didn't feel bad when I watched in Ryuki, but maybe because it was the first time a series had so many Riders that they could do that sort of thing. Remember, it was novel at the time and a lot of long-time fans complained because it felt out of spirit of past Kamen Rider series, which typically featured Riders as heroic (often alone) heroes fighting against a large organization

I think worst in the class probably comes from recent Rider (totally forgot that was a thing in Ex-Aid), but the stuff that comes to mind more easily is Inoue's stuff. By 555, the Rider vs Rider stuff wasn't something I loved about the series (partially because I didn't like the story). Same with Kiva versus IXA

I guess I don't mind it if the story is good. But here, in my personal opinion, it's not good at all, so it's a bit harder to tolerate. It just adds friction to the meager enjoyment that I do get from the series

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Re: Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by Mandalori »

Actually, it make sense. You have peoples who were fighting to protect peoples while being supported by an organization. Then, the new guys get isolated from one of your enemies, who also happened to be a former friend and member, and when he came back, this guys tell you things that totally contradicts what you know so far, with no proof to back it up (remember, they don't see flashbacks like the viewer). Not to mention, that no one had seen the betrayal coming the first two time, so they're willing to believe it happened a third time.

If you watch older shows, you'll see how much things have improved over the years. Seriously, I've watched a few older Sentai and they feel much more empty and stupid than what we've been watching for a least the last two decades.
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Re: Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by Comatose »

I'm a few episodes behind on Saber right now, actually at the beginning of the fighting just after Calibur dies and the representative from the Southern Base came and essentially split them all up. I've come to expect some form of conflict between riders each season, whether it's in a tournament kill or be killed type environment like in Ryuki or a simple "do what you want but don't get in my way and you won't get hurt" kind of way like in others. But this fight just seemed to come too suddenly. I don't want to say it was out of the blue but the switch was too easy. They spent so many episodes saying how they're friends and comrades and building up that unity and then boom, Calibur dies and the Southern representative shows up and talks to Touma and then the others and messes it all up. It was predictable that they were going in that direction but one would hope it would take more convincing for his so-called friends to think he had been turned. Yeah, for Buster and Slash it might be easier for them to believe it since they've experienced it before but the other two, especially Rintarou, should've taken more convincing. Like I said, I'm still early in it so maybe they continue to doubt it in the next few episodes and I don't know it yet so don't spoil for me, haha, but they're the ones who haven't gone through that level of betrayal before so they should be more open to listening to Touma and finding out the truth instead of just believing the representative.

Now I'll probably go and play catch-up. Don't have much else going on today.
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Re: Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by Raziel-Faustus »

im enjoying saber as after giving it some thought even with factoring in the how they got to know each other during the first quarter i can understand what buster and slash are doing/feeling as they have seen a comrade that they knew betray them so while i still think a simple talk can mitigate alot of this its understandable their hesitantance. when it comes to rintarou while he is drinking the idiot juice i can see the arguement that he is loyal to the organization and is still trying to give touma any shot he can.
The only character who im just not seeing the point is ren as hes just taking it bait and switch to the point that hes giving micchi a run for his money in terms of unlikeability. all in all i think that while the biggest issue is lack of communication and its stupid to a degree and i do hate that the megiddo have taken a backseat in all this.
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Re: Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

Post by decade368990 »

Even the Japanese people are not happy with the way Saber is currently running.
Here is the link: https://lovetokusatsu.com/2020/11/03/ja ... -episodes/
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