Was he really that likeable?
- takenoko
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Re: Was he really that likeable?
>weaklings like Ryoutarou and Takumi
Takumi is a weakling? Sorry man, I don't see that
>The riders are very different between themselves.
Why did you leave out Yuusuke, Shouichi, Shinji, and maybe Hibiki? Aren't they basically the ones that would fit William's argument? They're all the nice guy, well-meaning, try to save everyone Rider. Not sure if that's what William was thinking of, but I think that's it
>And I don't know you guys, but I wouldn't like to be Tendou.
Not sure what that statement means. It seems like "liking a character" and "wanting to be a character" are just totally different arguments.
Takumi is a weakling? Sorry man, I don't see that
>The riders are very different between themselves.
Why did you leave out Yuusuke, Shouichi, Shinji, and maybe Hibiki? Aren't they basically the ones that would fit William's argument? They're all the nice guy, well-meaning, try to save everyone Rider. Not sure if that's what William was thinking of, but I think that's it
>And I don't know you guys, but I wouldn't like to be Tendou.
Not sure what that statement means. It seems like "liking a character" and "wanting to be a character" are just totally different arguments.
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Re: Was he really that likeable?
"God or devil" on the front? where have I heard that before?
Kabuto did act like a jerk sometimes, but it was usually in a "blade supporting rider suddenly acting like a complete jackass" kinda way. Just as he gets into a helpful routine, bam. Sister complex, reason to act like a jackass. He gets past that, bam. Magic bullet goes the wrong way, jackass again. Whatever was worth hating him over still moved the plot along.
He may have excelled at anything he tried, but he still couldn't relate to people. That was supposed to be his problem, the reason why he kept doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. Thankfully, he turned it around and....so they could've shown a bit more of that part. Think of it this way...he could be continually screwed over for trying to do the right thing, but that would make him Ryuki. Or Blade. Or Faiz. Or Den-O. Or Kiva. Or Gatack.
Kabuto was stupidly strong, but he was fast enough to go back in time. He was entitled to be stupidly strong at that point (see Wally West). I don't think it made the fighting less interesting, though the last battle was a little sudden and anticlimactic.
Of course, there's also the two most important things to consider. His worst enemy was a meteor and he spoke almost entirely in one-liners. In other words, he was Amuro Ray as The Flash in a bug suit. Who could hate that?
Kabuto did act like a jerk sometimes, but it was usually in a "blade supporting rider suddenly acting like a complete jackass" kinda way. Just as he gets into a helpful routine, bam. Sister complex, reason to act like a jackass. He gets past that, bam. Magic bullet goes the wrong way, jackass again. Whatever was worth hating him over still moved the plot along.
He may have excelled at anything he tried, but he still couldn't relate to people. That was supposed to be his problem, the reason why he kept doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. Thankfully, he turned it around and....so they could've shown a bit more of that part. Think of it this way...he could be continually screwed over for trying to do the right thing, but that would make him Ryuki. Or Blade. Or Faiz. Or Den-O. Or Kiva. Or Gatack.
Kabuto was stupidly strong, but he was fast enough to go back in time. He was entitled to be stupidly strong at that point (see Wally West). I don't think it made the fighting less interesting, though the last battle was a little sudden and anticlimactic.
Of course, there's also the two most important things to consider. His worst enemy was a meteor and he spoke almost entirely in one-liners. In other words, he was Amuro Ray as The Flash in a bug suit. Who could hate that?
Spoiler
The hero's eventually going to win. But at what cost? Also,
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- m4rc0
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Re: Was he really that likeable?
Somebody mentioned that Tendou is the guy we would like to be. I'd rather be Yuuto and end up with Airi or Todoroki and get Hinaka (and Akira too, in AU).takenoko wrote:Not sure what that statement means. It seems like "liking a character" and "wanting to be a character" are just totally different arguments.
When I said that if you could find something in common between all riders was that they fight evil and protect others I included them all. Tendou is a try to save everyone rider, even though he is a jerk. Tsukasa too. All them are like that. I haven't heard of a rider that leaves people to die.takenoko wrote:Why did you leave out Yuusuke, Shouichi, Shinji, and maybe Hibiki? Aren't they basically the ones that would fit William's argument? They're all the nice guy, well-meaning, try to save everyone Rider. Not sure if that's what William was thinking of, but I think that's it
I haven't watched Kuuga, Agito, Blade and Kiva, so I can't say. I didn't include the old gen riders in the argument because even they are different. The ones you mentioned might be like Kagami, the nice guys. But my point is that you can't call being a nice guy a characteristic of a rider. Most are nice guys, but some are jerks.
Takumi not only is a weak rider (he looses a lot and suffer to win almost always), he is a weak willed person. Even Royutarou is stronger in heart than Takumi. Ryoutarou accepted his mission since the beginning, and never tried to run away. Takumi was very reluctant and even after accepting the mission, he faltered sometimes. But we are discussing Tendou, if you want to discuss that more I'll do it happily in the Faiz's discussion thread Azazel created.
- takenoko
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Re: Was he really that likeable?
Ah okay, I see what you mean about Takumi, actually
>All them are like that. I haven't heard of a rider that leaves people to die
It's not just that. One might say that the previous named Riders are more optimistic, idealistic, believes in people, etc. Tendou is more of a realist.
For example, if Tendou had to choose between saving a city and his little sister, he would obviously go for his sister. Same with Knight and Eri. These guys know what their priorities are. Kagami and the others would probably try to save the greater numbers in the hopes that everything will somehow turn out okay in the end. Actually, rereading it, I'm not totally sure if this is really all that convincing. But it's something like that
>All them are like that. I haven't heard of a rider that leaves people to die
It's not just that. One might say that the previous named Riders are more optimistic, idealistic, believes in people, etc. Tendou is more of a realist.
For example, if Tendou had to choose between saving a city and his little sister, he would obviously go for his sister. Same with Knight and Eri. These guys know what their priorities are. Kagami and the others would probably try to save the greater numbers in the hopes that everything will somehow turn out okay in the end. Actually, rereading it, I'm not totally sure if this is really all that convincing. But it's something like that
Re: Was he really that likeable?
I used to dislike weak personality riders like Ryoutarou and Wataru but I loved Den-O and Kiva shows. Tendou is the polar opposite of them but he simply takes it to far. The riders shouldn't be just wusses or jerks. How about a rider like the early ones who were both strong and caring of others? I think that's what some of the fans of previous generation shows are talking about. Unfortunately, I think he'd just be considered "cliche".
- m4rc0
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Re: Was he really that likeable?
There wasn't wussy old gen riders, but some of them weren't nice guys either.
The save a loved one or a big group of people dillema is a classic thing in hero stories. But the riders in Kabuto didn't face this choice.
The save a loved one or a big group of people dillema is a classic thing in hero stories. But the riders in Kabuto didn't face this choice.
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Re: Was he really that likeable?
Tendou had a similar choice actually. He could either save Renge and let the Hyper Zecter fall into enemy hands, or he could have saved the zecter and let Renge fall to her death. They teased him going for the zecter, but then reveal that he was after Renge all along.m4rc0 wrote:There wasn't wussy old gen riders, but some of them weren't nice guys either.
The save a loved one or a big group of people dillema is a classic thing in hero stories. But the riders in Kabuto didn't face this choice.
- yumenotenshi07
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Re: Was he really that likeable?
Goodness, this thread exploded all of a sudden. x__x
There was something else I was going to say... but I am having a hard time thinking. @__@ Wooo medication.
Oh yeah. I also think the assessment of Tendou as an anti-hero is quite accurate. Though I'm not sure I think the term "bad boy" really applies to him. I mean... maybe a little. He does act like an aloof jerk and he drives a motorcycle. But I never saw him as being selfish. Just arrogant. I think if Tendou was selfish, he would have thrown aside the Kabuto business in general and gone on to be a chef or something.
No matter how many people post here, it all seems to boil down to the same few reasons for liking or disliking Tendou. XD
I think you are very right. And I laughed at the last line just because of how it was worded. XD Or maybe because I'm just that out of it right now?takenoko wrote:Beyond the teasing, Tendou really does care about Kagami's feelings, which he shows on more than one occasion
In episode 4 (I think) he lets himself get beaten up while giving Kagami the ultimate choice for how to handle the Worm that is mimicying his brother
In another episode, Tendou kills a Worm in a way to make it seem like Kagami shot the Worm to death. It really does nothing to add to Tendou's mission, all it does is make Kagami feel good about himself
Plus he's nice to women and kids and stuff
There was something else I was going to say... but I am having a hard time thinking. @__@ Wooo medication.
Oh yeah. I also think the assessment of Tendou as an anti-hero is quite accurate. Though I'm not sure I think the term "bad boy" really applies to him. I mean... maybe a little. He does act like an aloof jerk and he drives a motorcycle. But I never saw him as being selfish. Just arrogant. I think if Tendou was selfish, he would have thrown aside the Kabuto business in general and gone on to be a chef or something.
No matter how many people post here, it all seems to boil down to the same few reasons for liking or disliking Tendou. XD
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Re: Was he really that likeable?
The thread exploded because tekenoko posted a link to it in TV-N's first page.
I had forgotten that, Raven.
I had forgotten that, Raven.
- yumenotenshi07
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Re: Was he really that likeable?
Oh. I didn't scroll down far enough on the main page to see that. ^^ Thanks.m4rc0 wrote:The thread exploded because tekenoko posted a link to it in TV-N's first page.
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Re: Was he really that likeable?
I can sorta follow this, since I really didn't like Tendou when he first appeared.
In fact, up until Gatack's appearance he always kind of bothered me,. but I actually remember when he managed to earn some cool points with me and that was episode... 26? I think. When he first fought Rena and got his ass-kicked.
It was kind of bizarre to watch as I kept wondering if he had some plan but... he didn't. He genuinely was just losing because he was so obsessed with protecting Hiyori. Also proved he wasn't perfect as when he tried fighting without being transformed he got throw around like a rag-doll.
I dunno about anyone else but that was where I started liking Tendou and saw him as more than a ridiculous Zenith of talents.
In fact, up until Gatack's appearance he always kind of bothered me,. but I actually remember when he managed to earn some cool points with me and that was episode... 26? I think. When he first fought Rena and got his ass-kicked.
It was kind of bizarre to watch as I kept wondering if he had some plan but... he didn't. He genuinely was just losing because he was so obsessed with protecting Hiyori. Also proved he wasn't perfect as when he tried fighting without being transformed he got throw around like a rag-doll.
I dunno about anyone else but that was where I started liking Tendou and saw him as more than a ridiculous Zenith of talents.
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Re: Was he really that likeable?
Actually, thinking about it, a lot of the series seem to have the "well intentioned but weak willed" guy, and the "aloof determined rival". For the sake of easy reference call them 'red' and 'blue' (like the oni thing)m4rc0 wrote:Those qualities vary a lot in the new gen riders. Some of them are strong types like Tendou od Tsukasa, or weaklings like Ryoutarou and Takumi. The riders are very different between themselves. The only thing the rally have in common is that they have or develop the determination to fight evil and protect people.William_Duel wrote:Kagami expresses and has the qualities normally associated with a Kamen Rider
Ryuki: Shinji/Ryuki is the Red, Ren/Knight if the Blue.
555: Kiba is the Red, Takumi/Faiz is the Blue*
Blade: Kenzaki/Blade is Red, Hajime/Chalice is Blue
(I haven't watched Hibiki)
Kabuto: Kagami/Gatack is Red, Tendou/Kabuto is Blue (I wonder if there's intentional irony in their colour schemes, as far as the "Red Oni/Blue Oni" thing goes. Although I guess their eyes match those colours)
Den-O: Ryotaro/Den-O is Red, Yuto/Zeronos is Blue
Kiva: Wataru/Kiva is Red, Nagato/IXA is Blue
(Otoya/IXA is Red, Jirou/IXA is Blue?)
Decade: Yuusuke/Kuuga is Red, Tsukasa/Decade is Blue
*: This one might take some qualification.
Spoiler
While I see Marco's point about Takumi seeming weak, I'd say that he's more apathetic than anything else. He comments early on in the series that he has no dream, and this is why he appears weak- he hasn't dedicated himself to something. When he does find a cause he becomes much stronger and more determined (for instance, when he decides to save Mari he is clearly willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done, and does so).
Kiba, on the other hand, has a dream which is all nice and flowery and peaceful, but he falters (the killing at the start of the series and his turn towards the end) in the face of it more.
Kiba, on the other hand, has a dream which is all nice and flowery and peaceful, but he falters (the killing at the start of the series and his turn towards the end) in the face of it more.
- takenoko
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Re: Was he really that likeable?
What's this red and blue oni thing?
I don't know, the only real weak-willed Rider that I see in that list are Wataru. Maybe there needs to be a better descriptor for it
I don't know, the only real weak-willed Rider that I see in that list are Wataru. Maybe there needs to be a better descriptor for it
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Re: Was he really that likeable?
See here. And as for Tendou's likability and all that... I don't really have a commenttakenoko wrote:What's this red and blue oni thing?