Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)

[Mitokosan]

I've never had a problem with the honorifics in subs, because it gives a greater sense of the bond between the characters, as for -tachi, i've never cared that it was placed in subs, because it adds to the bond that they are a group, and that they admit that (even if its other characters talking about the group...like Jii in Shinkenger). As for people wanting everything to be translated into english, that can be a double edged sword, because somethings dont have a perfect translation. Also depending how far your into a show if it ever does happen that the Subs do end up going into full translation (or as best it can be) its jarring. I noticed this with the subs i watch for bleach, when you get into the mindset that things are subbed a certain way (as we all have with T-N), change doesnt come easy, also like now, you get people upset for using honorifics, then if you take them out, you'll piss off the other half that watch, i dont think there is a good middle ground for it. Personally, i'm happy with whatever T-N does for that matter.

[FinalFenix]

Related question: I know that the Japanese word for playing card is trump, which is an English loan word, but do you really have to leave it as trump when translating? Trump in English doesn't refer to cards in general, or as a whole, but usually to specific card in certain card games, and seeing playing cards called trumps in the translation is always a little jarring.

I don't remember many instances of hearing "trump" in toku, except in Magiranger once. I don't think we've done it recently, but yeah, I can see where you might have a "WTF" moment

I noticed it in the Dairanger Movie. It bothered me for all of two seconds. lol

[ultrakill]

Related question: I know that the Japanese word for playing card is trump, which is an English loan word, but do you really have to leave it as trump when translating? Trump in English doesn't refer to cards in general, or as a whole, but usually to specific card in certain card games, and seeing playing cards called trumps in the translation is always a little jarring.

I'd rather have trump translated as playing cards than not since words like that actually do have an English translation/meaning to it. Same with "pinch". But what bothers me sometimes is when english/kata words are obviously spoken but translated into an almost different word from the original. It's like...why couldn't you have just used the English word for it..it's still understandable...

[Anomander Rake]

The only peeve I really have is the '-tachi'.

Does it make it shorter to sub? Yes. Does it sound good in English? I don't think so.

[That Guy]

Related question: I know that the Japanese word for playing card is trump, which is an English loan word, but do you really have to leave it as trump when translating? Trump in English doesn't refer to cards in general, or as a whole, but usually to specific card in certain card games, and seeing playing cards called trumps in the translation is always a little jarring.

I'd rather have trump translated as playing cards than not since words like that actually do have an English translation/meaning to it. Same with "pinch". But what bothers me sometimes is when english/kata words are obviously spoken but translated into an almost different word from the original. It's like...why couldn't you have just used the English word for it..it's still understandable...

More often than not, the Japanese meaning of an English word is somewhat different from the English meaning of that word, so just leaving that word would sound awkward and probably not make sense.

[Silentwolfdog]

I enjoy seeing the honorifics kept in the subs. It adds to the communication.

I've been learning more this way, too. It's makes it that much better.

Probably the same reason why I like to have fansub groups (hopefully someday licensed companies) keeps honorifics in subtitles.

I usually am greatly annoyed when one translates or omits honorific or terms that symbolize a type of relationship, such as translating okaa-san/kaa-san to "mother" or changes -san to "Mr./Ms.", etc. Since I can't hear, I greatly depend on group to bring it to the show, and by omitting or altering it, one simply excludes me from enjoying the show and Japanese culture to its full. As simple as that. This drives me crazy in some fansub shows I've watched, includes TVN (as much as I love TVN *holds flame shield just in case*).

Sometimes, you got to let fans decide what relationship means between two characters by leaving it alone instead of having translator decide it for us. Every one of us have different interpretation of what it means to characters in the show, so let us decide it on our own, instead of have it translated or omitted.

But like some said, one can't keep everyone happy.

I don't get why -tachi bothers some people? It seems like Japaneses use it just fine. O.o

Anyhow, that's my reason for liking people to keep honorifics in the subtitles. This is topic I have wanted to talk about for quite a while and I am glad that I got it out in open.

[Alessar]

The only peeve I really have is the '-tachi'.

But ... do you understand what that word means? As I understand it, Japanese culture has an unstated focus on groups. You want to be in a group, you don't want to be separate. It's not cool to be a solo! You want to be on someone's team, in their clique, and when that group is addressed you're collectively referred to as name-tachi, "name's group". If someone's saying watashi-tachi, which you could construct as "you guys!" it means that speaker is in that group. So it's a really significant social positioner. At least, that's the way I interpreted it. It's been decades since I took Japanese in college so sorry if I've completely misremembered that.

I have to agree with Takenoko's post way up at the top of the first page. When people start translating honorifics, they often just don't get it right! I recently watched a bunch of subtitled Slayers Revolution/Evolution-R and wow did it stick in my craw when Sylphiel called Gourry "Gourry-sama" and it got a Mr. Gourry instead of a contextually appropriate Sir Gourry. Someone else got hit with the -dono honorific and do you think they got a Lordship (they were a noble no less)? Nope, they got a Sir. Ok, a sir might be appropriate in the British baronial sense but that character wasn't a warrior/samurai/knight. I think it was Xellos, actually. *twitch* Argh. See? Better to just leave the honorific on.

[Archon Divinus]

Well, with Slayers it's better to just wait for the dub.

[Uncontrol]

Here's a slightly more interesting question IMO (as I feel this one has been adequately answered):

Why is "henshin" not translated to "transform"? Is it just because "henshin" has become a slogan in and of itself?

I guess this is why momotaros' "ore sanjou" or whatever is untranslated, as well? I didn't watch Den-O so when he appeared in All Riders I had no idea what the hell he said. I think honorifics should be untranslated for the reasons specified (simply, -san, -chan, etc. do not translate directly to English very well).

However, it seemed to be that stuff such as okaa-san should be directly translated as it translates quite smoothly, does it not? Am I missing something here?

I don't get why -tachi bothers some people? It seems like Japaneses use it just fine. O.o

Because the viewers of these fansubs likely don't speak Japanese. I think a lot of words are left untranslated simply due to "otakuism".

[Anomander Rake]

But ... do you understand what that word means? As I understand it, Japanese culture has an unstated focus on groups. You want to be in a group, you don't want to be separate. It's not cool to be a solo! You want to be on someone's team, in their clique, and when that group is addressed you're collectively referred to as name-tachi, "name's group". If someone's saying watashi-tachi, which you could construct as "you guys!" it means that speaker is in that group. So it's a really significant social positioner. At least, that's the way I interpreted it. It's been decades since I took Japanese in college so sorry if I've completely misremembered that.

That might be so. But you are forgetting that subs are for people that do not speak Japanese. So properly translating what is said in Japanese should be a must. Otherwise the entire concept of subbing something is lost. You can't expect everyone watching subs to know the differences of Japanese honorifics.

I have to agree with Takenoko's post way up at the top of the first page. When people start translating honorifics, they often just don't get it right! I recently watched a bunch of subtitled Slayers Revolution/Evolution-R and wow did it stick in my craw when Sylphiel called Gourry "Gourry-sama" and it got a Mr. Gourry instead of a contextually appropriate Sir Gourry. Someone else got hit with the -dono honorific and do you think they got a Lordship (they were a noble no less)? Nope, they got a Sir. Ok, a sir might be appropriate in the British baronial sense but that character wasn't a warrior/samurai/knight. I think it was Xellos, actually. *twitch* Argh. See? Better to just leave the honorific on.

So, just because one group is kinda incompetent that excuses others for not trying to make a properly subbed series/movie?

Ever watched an English DVD of a Japanese movie? They properly manage to translate as well. Heck, with Ultraman movies the JAPANESE DVDs already come with English subs (i.e. those were translated by Japanese) and they don't use -kun-sama-tachi either.

[Magenta]

I guess this is why momotaros' "ore sanjou" or whatever is untranslated, as well? I didn't watch Den-O so when he appeared in All Riders I had no idea what the hell he said.

This bothered me a little, I admit, but not enough to really annoy me. What really annoyed me was when he shoved a word in the middle of it and that was left untranslated by virtue of being sandwiched in between two other words that are untranslated.

I guess "If it's possible to put a simple note saying "[x] means [y]" then just put [y] in the fucking first place" is a pretty good rule.

[Crimzonite]

Personally, I don't mind if honorifics are in the subs or not, because I can hear the honorifics just fine either way (though there are some translations that are awkward, like the "Umi-ster, Fuu-ster" Rayearth sub mentioned earlier, or subs that replace "oniichan/oneechan" with the character's first name).

However, subs with honorifics in them would be helpful to those who are deaf or hard of hearing.

[That Guy]

Here's a slightly more interesting question IMO (as I feel this one has been adequately answered):

Why is "henshin" not translated to "transform"? Is it just because "henshin" has become a slogan in and of itself?

I guess this is why momotaros' "ore sanjou" or whatever is untranslated, as well? I didn't watch Den-O so when he appeared in All Riders I had no idea what the hell he said. I think honorifics should be untranslated for the reasons specified (simply, -san, -chan, etc. do not translate directly to English very well).

Yeah, "Henshin" has become the de-facto Kamen Rider transformation call. It's got a simple enough meaning that anybody can learn what it means in a second if they ask, and most of us think it sounds cooler to say "Henshin" than "Transform". And in some Transformers shows, they use both "Henshin" and "Transform" (spoken in English), so distinguishing between the two is a must.

As for "Ore sanjou", it's his catchphrase, and it's short enough that we figured it could be left untranslated without confusing the hell out of viewers. Ura, Kin, Ryu, Deneb, and Sieg's catchphrases are longer and of course, they specific phrasing changes each time, so those had to be translated, but other than Momo occasionally adding an extra word like "finally", his stays short and sweet and consistent. It can be rather arbitrary sometimes, but subbing is an arbitrary process.

I agree with all the people saying that "-tachi" is usually unnecessary to leave in, and it can be translated as "we", "us", "you guys", "them", etc. depending on context fairly easily. Okaa-san, Otou-san, obaa-chan, oji-chan, onii-san, onee-san, and those I find somewhat arbitrary. Yeah, "nii-san/nee-san" or whatever honorific is used are good to keep in because people don't consistently call their siblings by "bro" or "sis" in English, but they're not saying the names and it would be inappropriate to translate "onii/onee-san" as "[name]". Father/mother/grandma/grandpa I find depend on the situation, because while yeah, you can translate it as dad/mom/grandma/grandpa, the honorific used is again significant. This led to an amusing situation in Magiranger where the siblings talked about "father and kaa-san".

[Silentwolfdog]

Ah other thing I forgot to mention after seeing guys discuss a bit more.

Other reason I am not comfortable with translator translating okaa-san or kaa-san (terms that represent any parent, sibling, etc.) because it does not always mean same thing when translating. Mother and mommy can mean two very different thing when it comes to character relationship. So it's same with okaa-san and kaa-san. Terms like that I feel like truly do get lost in translation.

I know you guys can hear so translating that wouldn't bother you guys, but fact is that I can't so I don't want it translated. I hated the fact that sometimes I had to ask other fans to see what they originally said it in Japanese when I see something like "dad" or "mom" in subtitles. because I am painfully aware of culture difference with terms. It just seems strange that I have to ask others to translate it back to Japanese (in forum or chat room) so I can understand character's relationship better. I don't want having to do that every time.

[ry632]

Personally, I don't mind if honorifics are in the subs or not, because I can hear the honorifics just fine either way (though there are some translations that are awkward, like the "Umi-ster, Fuu-ster" Rayearth sub mentioned earlier, or subs that replace "oniichan/oneechan" with the character's first name).

However, subs with honorifics in them would be helpful to those who are deaf or hard of hearing.

This is just what I was going to say, (almost word for word in the first half.) so just a ditto to this post for me.