Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)

[Lunagel]

Again with the translating "okaa-san, otou-san", I'd like to bring up one more example.

There was a drama I watched where everything was supposed to be in a very upper-class setting, where everyone used formal Japanese and drinks tea with their pinkies out. My main problem was the translator, instead of translating "onee-sama" as "elder sister" or "honored sister", something that irks me, but I can live with, replaced every instance of it with the sister's name. This is hideously rude in Japanese, to show such familiarity and lack of respect when the situation clearly calls for it.

So maybe you have to actually think about the relationships between the two people talking and perhaps even *gasp* try to understand the culture, but I think it's a fair trade.

[Uncontrol]

As for "Ore sanjou", it's his catchphrase, and it's short enough that we figured it could be left untranslated without confusing the hell out of viewers. Ura, Kin, Ryu, Deneb, and Sieg's catchphrases are longer and of course, they specific phrasing changes each time, so those had to be translated, but other than Momo occasionally adding an extra word like "finally", his stays short and sweet and consistent. It can be rather arbitrary sometimes, but subbing is an arbitrary process.

It's short, yes, but if you have no clue what those words mean it doesn't help if it's short. I guess it would be OK if you did it throughout Den-O, but in the Decade ep it should've been translated for those of us who didn't watch Den-O, at least. However, like I said, this seems like something that was left untranslated simply due to Japanophilia.

[Guardian07]

It's short, yes, but if you have no clue what those words mean it doesn't help if it's short. I guess it would be OK if you did it throughout Den-O, but in the Decade ep it should've been translated for those of us who didn't watch Den-O, at least. However, like I said, this seems like something that was left untranslated simply due to Japanophilia.

Then get off your butt and start researching. Wiki is enough.

Also some language lessons might do you good. Any other language is fine. Then probably you'd understand how different languages are and the pains the translator had to go through, to give you good quality subs.

An example; In a stage talkshow, Inoue Masahiro(Decade) called Kimito Totani(DiEnd) 'Kimi-chan'(yes, he did call him that, everyone does). By 'Kimi-chan', it shows how close they are, and the two guys aren't just co-stars, but good friends. To fully translate it, the translator might 1)just put Kimito, and lose much of the meaning and impact of the word and the insight to their relationship, or god forbid 2)put something along the line of 'Kimmy', 'Kimi-dear' which totally not what he meant. Best leave it as 'Kimi-chan' and let the viewers take what they will.

[Magenta]

Dear god will you get off your fucking high horse.

The entire point of a good translation is IMMERSION. If the viewer has to refer to outside materials, you have FUCKED UP. Big time. Because either they have to pause the video and go look it up, which completely breaks the flow, or they have to experience the scene with an incomplete picture, and you won't find many people who'll be able to retroactively be moved/saddened/brightened by something just because they suddenly understand it.

That's not to say leaving shit untranslated is a bad thing, but cover for it, explain it. Acting like the viewer is at fault for being left in the dark is a ridiculous and stupid concept.

Edit: Okay, I feel I should clarify. There is the concept of a rational expectation of knowledge. For example, if you're reading a book on advanced mathematics, they're going to assume you're familiar with long division. If you're watching a programme explaining the advanced uses of kanji compounds, then it's safe to assume your viewer has knowledge of basic kanji, grammar and a full understanding of kana.

But when the entire point of a fansub is so people who DO NOT KNOW THE LANGUAGE can understand something, leaving something unexplained is bad. It wasn't deliberate, in this case, it was just assumed knowledge - which is something we do a little too much, and it's regrettable, but there you go. However, when someone goes "Well, there's a perfectly reasonable situation in which I'd be experiencing this without that knowledge, and it's wrong to assume in this case" - which is a perfectly valid view - acting like they're in the wrong is just snobbery of the highest kind.

At the risk of sounding like some kind of martyr, a translator exists to translate something on your behalf. We use our knowledge and abilities to provide the viewer with something they can watch and appreciate. Acting like someone is somehow wrong for not having the ability to self-translate is like running a coffee shop, selling lattes, not having any milk, and then saying it's the customer's duty to bring their own.

[Go-On Macaroni]

I guess this is why momotaros' "ore sanjou" or whatever is untranslated, as well? I didn't watch Den-O so when he appeared in All Riders I had no idea what the hell he said. I think honorifics should be untranslated for the reasons specified (simply, -san, -chan, etc. do not translate directly to English very well).

There's your problem.
You missed the TL Notes sprinkled through the show.

[Guardian07]

Dear god will you get off your fucking high horse.

The entire point of a good translation is IMMERSION. If the viewer has to refer to outside materials, you have FUCKED UP. Big time. Because either they have to pause the video and go look it up, which completely breaks the flow, or they have to experience the scene with an incomplete picture, and you won't find many people who'll be able to retroactively be moved/saddened/brightened by something just because they suddenly understand it.

That's not to say leaving shit untranslated is a bad thing, but cover for it, explain it. Acting like the viewer is at fault for being left in the dark is a ridiculous and stupid concept.

Edit: Okay, I feel I should clarify. There is the concept of a rational expectation of knowledge. For example, if you're reading a book on advanced mathematics, they're going to assume you're familiar with long division. If you're watching a programme explaining the advanced uses of kanji compounds, then it's safe to assume your viewer has knowledge of basic kanji, grammar and a full understanding of kana.

But when the entire point of a fansub is so people who DO NOT KNOW THE LANGUAGE can understand something, leaving something unexplained is bad. It wasn't deliberate, in this case, it was just assumed knowledge - which is something we do a little too much, and it's regrettable, but there you go. However, when someone goes "Well, there's a perfectly reasonable situation in which I'd be experiencing this without that knowledge, and it's wrong to assume in this case" - which is a perfectly valid view - acting like they're in the wrong is just snobbery of the highest kind.

At the risk of sounding like some kind of martyr, a translator exists to translate something on your behalf. We use our knowledge and abilities to provide the viewer with something they can watch and appreciate. Acting like someone is somehow wrong for not having the ability to self-translate is like running a coffee shop, selling lattes, not having any milk, and then saying it's the customer's duty to bring their own.

Point taken. No point of translating if the translation doesn't do what they're supposed to do; help people who don't understand the language to...well, understand it, right? Yeah, I was wrong.

[That Guy]

I guess this is why momotaros' "ore sanjou" or whatever is untranslated, as well? I didn't watch Den-O so when he appeared in All Riders I had no idea what the hell he said. I think honorifics should be untranslated for the reasons specified (simply, -san, -chan, etc. do not translate directly to English very well).

There's your problem.
You missed the TL Notes sprinkled through the show.

Um......there weren't any TL notes on Momo's catchprase in Den-O world of Decade.

[XIII]

he was refering to Den-O series, not Decade

[hurrycanger]

This "tv-nihon" project is for making Japanese fansubs right? Since it's for Japanese fansubs, probably most people come here with their excitement about Japanese stuffs, not only because one show. Aren't such fans able to understand a little bit of Japanese after watching bunch of Japanese series?

Or maybe in tv-nihon forums, we can make a topic about the meaning of these honorifics and tell the newbies to read them before watching the series so that they can understand. And well... -san, -chan, -kun, and -tachi, are not that much. People don't even need to know あ in order to understand those honorifics.

Anyways, still... not everyone will be happy about it.

[Korcas]

Dear god will you get off your fucking high horse.

The entire point of a good translation is IMMERSION. If the viewer has to refer to outside materials, you have FUCKED UP. Big time. Because either they have to pause the video and go look it up, which completely breaks the flow, or they have to experience the scene with an incomplete picture, and you won't find many people who'll be able to retroactively be moved/saddened/brightened by something just because they suddenly understand it.

That's not to say leaving shit untranslated is a bad thing, but cover for it, explain it. Acting like the viewer is at fault for being left in the dark is a ridiculous and stupid concept.

Edit: Okay, I feel I should clarify. There is the concept of a rational expectation of knowledge. For example, if you're reading a book on advanced mathematics, they're going to assume you're familiar with long division. If you're watching a programme explaining the advanced uses of kanji compounds, then it's safe to assume your viewer has knowledge of basic kanji, grammar and a full understanding of kana.

But when the entire point of a fansub is so people who DO NOT KNOW THE LANGUAGE can understand something, leaving something unexplained is bad. It wasn't deliberate, in this case, it was just assumed knowledge - which is something we do a little too much, and it's regrettable, but there you go. However, when someone goes "Well, there's a perfectly reasonable situation in which I'd be experiencing this without that knowledge, and it's wrong to assume in this case" - which is a perfectly valid view - acting like they're in the wrong is just snobbery of the highest kind.

At the risk of sounding like some kind of martyr, a translator exists to translate something on your behalf. We use our knowledge and abilities to provide the viewer with something they can watch and appreciate. Acting like someone is somehow wrong for not having the ability to self-translate is like running a coffee shop, selling lattes, not having any milk, and then saying it's the customer's duty to bring their own.

God damn Magenta, have my babies already.

What's even more annoying than stuff like -tachi and honorrifics being left intact, though, is the hordes of people that don't know a hint of Japanese, interpreting deep, intricate relationships into someone calling another person whatever-chan.

Really? The most -chan and whatever ever does, is elevate a name you call someone to a nickname/pet name, whatever. Sure they add honorifics to brothers and sisters, but it's really no different from what WE call our relatives, brothers, sisters, coworkers, etc. We give everyone different names, be it their last name, be it their first name, be it whatever. That's perfectly equivalent to all the -san -kun -sama crap.

And don't bother telling me it's not, and that there's some magical meaning behind it that westeners don't understand. It's not true. And Japanese people will tell you the same damn thing. Same goes for -tachi. It's simply used to count up groups. It doesn't have a magical "wow they're really close together" meaning, it just means "and the others".

It's normal to be confused about these when you don't know Japanese and wtf is going on with the subs, I can forgive you seeing magical meanings everywhere because other people keep telling you there are. But that doesn't make it truth. They're simple honorifics that we convey in the context of how we speak to people, and how we modify their names. They're perfectly replaceable in any sort of localization. -tachi even moreso.

So please, stop preaching this junk about untranslatable nonsense, I've yet to see ANY Japanese word that can't be translated without the loss of meaning.

As for the aniki thing, ever heard of context? It's bro in one situation, boss in the next, or whatever other gangster honoriffic you can think of. Maybe you should watch a few Yakuza movies, and see how they translate it, I for one have never seen any "aniki" in professionally translated Yakuza movies.

Which is also the point of professional translations. There are two steps to a professional translation.

1: Translation - Roughly translating what is said, and literally putting together what is said. - That's what most fansubbers do.

2: Localization - The more important point, making it accessible to the language you translate it to, working on jokes so they make sense, finding equivalents for puns and sayings, etc. Every professional work does that. Only fansub group so far, I've seen do that were CoalGuys on their B Gata H Kei subs.

And again, I'm okay with honorifics being there, they don't ruin anything, and they are what's spoken anyway. But untranslated stuff like -tachi, or nekojita that really doesn't need to be untranslated just appears lazy.

tl;dr: Intact honorifics are a matter of choice, they're in no way untranslatable or have magical meanings, but if the subber decides to leave them there, that's just fine.

Now, please, stop treating Japanese like the magical super language, it's no more untranslatable than Russian, German or French.

And well... -san, -chan, -kun, and -tachi, are not that much. People don't even need to know あ in order to understand those honorifics.

-tachi is NOT a honorific term.

[Uncontrol]

I guess this is why momotaros' "ore sanjou" or whatever is untranslated, as well? I didn't watch Den-O so when he appeared in All Riders I had no idea what the hell he said. I think honorifics should be untranslated for the reasons specified (simply, -san, -chan, etc. do not translate directly to English very well).

There's your problem.
You missed the TL Notes sprinkled through the show.

Or they could have just translated what Momotaros' said.

I imagine it looked something like this?

Then get off your butt and start researching. Wiki is enough.

Also some language lessons might do you good. Any other language is fine. Then probably you'd understand how different languages are and the pains the translator had to go through, to give you good quality subs.

You're saying this to someone who was raised in English Canada and now living in French Canada, doing my best to learn French. You probably shouldn't jump to conclusions like this. TV-Nihon has, by far, the best quality subs I've ever seen, professional or otherwise. Just because I leave a critique doesn't mean I don't understand the difficulty of it; rather, I wouldn't bother to leave a critique if the project wasn't so solid in the first place.

An example; In a stage talkshow, Inoue Masahiro(Decade) called Kimito Totani(DiEnd) 'Kimi-chan'(yes, he did call him that, everyone does). By 'Kimi-chan', it shows how close they are, and the two guys aren't just co-stars, but good friends.

While the importance of this is debatable, I already said that I can understand the reasoning behind leaving honorific untranslated. Leaving entire sentences/phrases untranslated is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

This "tv-nihon" project is for making Japanese fansubs right? Since it's for Japanese fansubs, probably most people come here with their excitement about Japanese stuffs, not only because one show. Aren't such fans able to understand a little bit of Japanese after watching bunch of Japanese series?

I've shown Kamen Rider to a lot of "non-otaku" people and they've gotten into it. In addition to that, I don't really watch a lot of anime etc. either. However, I do know basic honorifics. However, I don't think that should be a necessity for reading subtitles.

Or maybe in tv-nihon forums, we can make a topic about the meaning of these honorifics and tell the newbies to read them before watching the series so that they can understand. And well... -san, -chan, -kun, and -tachi, are not that much. People don't even need to know あ in order to understand those honorific.

"If you need to read an instruction manual before you can understand subtitles, you blew it."

[Go-On Macaroni]

Or they could have just translated what Momotaros' said.

I imagine it looked something like this?

Uh no, it was a lot better than that. (Ex. "Ore Sanjou!", TL Note: "I have arrived!")

[gh0stwrit3r]

I've been watching anime for too long that I'm not really bothered by it anymore. Add to that the countless hours listening to various 90s jpop. Honorifics and '-tachi' just rolls off my tongue these days. I'm actually surprised someone doesn't like the word. To each his own, yes?

Momo's 'Ore sanjou!', I understood it as soon as he said it. I don't know, but I've heard these two words so many times that subtitles just 'help' me understand episodes better.

But, I don't remember being too lost in translation while watching Japanese shows. A little googlesearch does alot of good in such situations.

And the puns! I love seeing the untranslated/romanized wordplay. I learn a little more japanese each day because of those.

Bottom line is, IMHO, Take's decision to keep translating it the way it is now is well and good. Besides, suddenly deciding to change things now would cause more people to complain. You really can't please everybody.

[hurrycanger]

"If you need to read an instruction manual before you can understand subtitles, you blew it."

I don't.
Well... if so many people got confused when they read "-san" "-chan" "-kun" etc. then they may have to read that manual (maybe the ones who watch a subbed Japanese show at the first time )

For me, reading subs with -san -chan -kun -sama ; -tachi and even onii-chan, aniki, okaa-san, obaa-san is extremely fine. I even like it more that way.
---

-tachi is NOT a honorific term.

my bad

---

I've been watching anime for too long that I'm not really bothered by it anymore. Add to that the countless hours listening to various 90s jpop. Honorifics and '-tachi' just rolls off my tongue these days. I'm actually surprised someone doesn't like the word. To each his own, yes?

Momo's 'Ore sanjou!', I understood it as soon as he said it. I don't know, but I've heard these two words so many times that subtitles just 'help' me understand episodes better.

But, I don't remember being too lost in translation while watching Japanese shows. A little googlesearch does alot of good in such situations.

And the puns! I love seeing the untranslated/romanized wordplay. I learn a little more japanese each day because of those.

Bottom line is, IMHO, Take's decision to keep translating it the way it is now is well and good. Besides, suddenly deciding to change things now would cause more people to complain. You really can't please everybody.

I agree with you

And back to what the topic says, I still think having the honorifics in the subs is very nice. I really enjoy reading "nee-san" better than "sister" or "/name/"

[Korcas]

Well, not everyone is weeaboo enough to want English mixed with Japanese.

If you prefer Japanese over English, go learn Japanese and watch the stuff raw.

Mixing Japanese with English just defeats the point of fansubs.

You'll eventually grow out of adoring Japanese so much that you replace your sister with nee-chan. Believe me.

Also, don't depend on TN to "learn a little more Japanese every day", no offense to Takenoko, but he gets puns wrong too. The Naniwa incident comes to mind.

If you want to learn a language, learn the language, and don't depend on fansubs and weeabooing your way through anime clubs. It really sounds a lot like you're one of those anime club guys in college. No offense to you, I just always find that a bit concerning.