Did Kamen Rider lose its mojo?

[takenoko]

Has Kamen Rider lost its edge post Den-O? Is it more silly and less gritty than before?

Maybe, but I think it's still got some bite. Kiva, as much as I dislike it, was full of drama and was maybe even a bit too dark. W had some light hearted moments, but it had some gruesome crimes too. And Gaim was pretty much a return to form, I think?

[NEO Ness]

Brief background introduction:
(skip if you don't care)
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A friend of mine told me about this website when I mentioned I'd be interested in Kamen Rider-type stuff because of my previous interested in Bio-Booster Armor Guyver and how much I liked the 2nd movie. While I've only been a Kamen Rider fan for a little more than a year now, I haven't had a chance to watch EVERY series yet. I've given some a shot but stopped (Kiva, Decade, Wizard, and some others).

My experience is still fresh. I started with Kamen Rider Kabuto because I really liked the suit designs. It had a good chemistry of characters, a little on the silly side, but nothing that didn't stop me from falling in love with the characters and the suit designs. (Kabuto's movie was amazing!)

After Kabuto the same friend that told me about this website said his favorite series was Den-O and I should check it out. So I did. I found myself a little off, I felt even compared to Kabuto's silliness that it was a tad extreme. Definitely made for a much MUCH younger audience. I watched all of it because he asked me to check it out and I wanted to talk about it with him.

After that I checked out 555 and Kamen Rider The First/The Next. Their dark themes and serious tone, while still being somewhat cheesy still with the fights, made the show much more enjoyable to me. I felt like it was taking its audience seriously while the art of the Tokusatsu style was being done justice.

A group of friends and I got into Kamen Rider after I showed them Kabuto and 555. So now we try to watch new series every so often. I enjoyed the English adaptation of Ryuki (Kamen Rider Dragon Knight). I then did a lot of research with the original series and themes and I'm now watching Black and Amazons, while being almost done with Agito.

So then a little later we tried to watch Wizard, but he like turned small and there was a unicorn or something in Episode 1? Kamen Rider on a unicorn... I think I tried the first episode of Drive when it first came out? I was still watching Kabuto and what not, but a Cars-themed Kamen Rider? I dig the suit designs, but small cars floating around and were they talking? Knowing what I know now had I watched it for the first time I'd feel like it'd be an insult to the series for what they did in Drive. Also looking back at Den-O: Trains? Kamen Rider flying in a instant dimensional train? The idea itself now makes me feel really dumb for even watching it.

I understand the idea of 'originality' and trying something new, but hot damn, are some of those out there.

Kiva? I watched a few epsiodes. Kamen Rider as a vampire? I'd dig it. Not really into Vampire stuff, but I'm thinking my friends and I will marathon it around October this year.

Decade? Oh boy, this one. I wanted to love this one so bad. I still plan on finishing it some time, but I got far enough to pass the 555 part and the Kabuto part and I was saddened to find out they didn't get the original actors to come back and be in their own world. From what I could tell they didn't do that with any of them. I was pretty saddened about that. Loved the opening song by Gackt though.

People tell me to watch Gaim. It was written by someone who is a popular writer among my friends.

The new Ghost series, I loved the design of the suits, but man I can't get over characters being so fake and unrealistic at times. It still felt kiddy to me, and the floating eyes and talking ghosts thing, it's too much. I remember reading a comment somewhere that "it's very dark and not for kids because the main character died." That is just blatantly not true.

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While hate is a strong word to say for Den-O+ series, I can say for certain that my experiences with Kamen Rider are much more enjoyable when they took themselves seriously and had a dark tone. It was the style that impressed and intrigued me. Every time I'd watch a new series with each episode I'd ask myself "How'd they film that? Was it with wires? I bet this is fun to make!" The art of it captivates me. With the more childish approach I get distracted and not interested in the characters who seem very unnatural.

I can't for the life of me bring myself to understand the reasons behind small talking creatures/objects. Kiva has a annoying bat, Ghost has those ghost things, even Decade had to have another annoying bat.

I feel like the soul of Kamen Rider stems from its origins. While I haven't personally watched the original series, I've been watching the the ever-so-popular Black series. Kamen Rider seems to be much more down to earth than the Sentai series. Realistic to a point, but keeping the Tokusatsu artistic approach. The tone of the series separates it from other childish series in that it takes its audience very seriously. Even from a kids point of view if you want to argue that Kamen Rider is ultimately a kids show, I feel like the dark drama would still take children seriously. Even the American adaptation of Ryuki was serious and took the kids watching it much more seriously than the older Power Rangers (Haven't seen any newer ones so I'm not sure about newer ones).

All in all, a serious tone and solid story makes any series good. While I'm not much for comedies which might make my opinion on the subject a little more biased because some people enjoy the newer stuff for the humor, but I feel like Kamen Rider's humor stems from its Tokusatsu heritage. I still get a kick out of the effects and fights, it's hard for me to not laugh at the silliness of the fights, but that is what makes me enjoy that artistic approach that much more.

I think the Kamen Rider Soul has been lost because of Den-O. Just because they have big eyes and get on a motorcycle doesn't make it Kamen Rider. The Soul is in the way it's made and presented. I wasn't sure about the condition of Kamen Rider's current fan-base because of the newest series. I'm not very immersed in the fan-base yet. I'm very pleased to see that I'm not the only one who thinks this way as the demand for a original style Kamen Rider was high enough to make Kamen Rider Amazons a thing. I hope and pray every day that they keep making series like Amazons. I don't mind that it's only a handful of episodes. Sometimes when you don't have 40+ episodes to work with filler stuff makes a series better anyways.

(Sorry about the grammar. I'm half awake...)

[Catastrophe]

Personally, I feel the change occurs during Kabuto. While Kabuto still has some dark shit, like the way some of the worms kill humans, it's also the point where I think the humour is forcefully inserted rather than organically woven into the script. Things like the Dark Kitchen arc and Kagamis 'Love Love' scene. Stuff like that didn't really happen in the early Heisei series, the comedy was typically naturally included in the scripts and the character interactions.

Den-O kind of went with this idea and ran with it, and it worked well. However even series like Kiva whereby you get humans drained into empty glass husks by vampires still had no end of the silly antics, mostly with Otoya but also Nago. This kind of thing has kind of become ingrained into it now.

Which is fine. Most of the series are enjoyable enough. W, Gaim and Drive still had some grim stuff in it. I think Gaim was the best with carrying the dark tone that the earlier series had, but still comes across as lighter because the city looks bright, as opposed to the early Heisei series where everything looked more realistic and gritty.

[fenrir]

does anybody think that the 2episode arc during den-o, kiva etc until Gaim also make the KR mojo distracted as well??

[takenoko]

I dunno, humors always been a part of Kamen Rider though. Like Kuuga, Agito, and Ryuki are all extremely funny shows in their own right, while also having serious aspects as well.

[Phoenix512]

If you watched the Fourze Showa Kamen Rider Trivia, you can tell even back then it was a kid oriented show. I think from the early 2000s that it was hooking in the adults that watched the original shows from the 70s and 80s but they needed to hook in the kids again. So around Kabuto and Den-O, they began to focus on the toys and gadgets for the kids.

I'm with takenoko that it really hasn't lost its edge but rather it became a more toy-oriented show.

As the 2 episode arc thing, it didn't start with Den-O. It was there during Kuuga and the earlier shows. Den-O just made it obvious to people and the constant complaining about it hasn't stopped since then.

[NEO Ness]

I dunno, humors always been a part of Kamen Rider though. Like Kuuga, Agito, and Ryuki are all extremely funny shows in their own right, while also having serious aspects as well.

Yeah, each series has its own type of humor. I totally agree with that.

Personally, I feel the change occurs during Kabuto. While Kabuto still has some dark shit, like the way some of the worms kill humans, it's also the point where I think the humour is forcefully inserted rather than organically woven into the script. Things like the Dark Kitchen arc and Kagamis 'Love Love' scene. Stuff like that didn't really happen in the early Heisei series, the comedy was typically naturally included in the scripts and the character interactions.

I see what you mean about Kabuto. I'm a little biased with Kabuto given it's the first series I watched.



I still haven't finished a few things, and I probably wont unfortunately, but there something about the earlier series that gets my attention much better than the newer stuff.

One thing I've noticed with some friends of mine is that the first series we've watched has been our favorite series (Whether it be Kabuto, 555, Den-O, etc). After I watched Kabuto my line of expectations was set. I bet if I watched 555 first I probably wouldn't like Kabuto as much. I know a lot of you have been watching Kamen Rider a lot longer than me so that might not be the same for you anymore.


I do like to see everyone's favorite and least favorite series and the reasons why

[Lunagel]

I have to agree with Phoenix, it's always been about selling the toys. And I don't think the newer Kamen Riders are really that different from the original Showa. You had crazy stories and weird characters and humor in Showa too, just a different format than modern shows. And heck, Black and RX were criticized at the time for moving too much in the Metal Heroes direction.

But I also have to point out that a lot of it is largely the product of the events going on at the time. I think a huge reason why Fourze was so happy-go-lucky was due to the Fukushima earthquake in 2011 and them wanting to boost the spirits of the kids.

[Kuchiri]

Wizard had some really dark moments. Even though the show was boring for most of it and ended horribly, Gremlin's backstory gave me chills when I first watched it. Did not see coming at all.

Gaim is an extremely dark show disguised with silly bits. Drive had a bunch of silly but also had probably the most engaging mid season story arc (Not counting Gaim) in the post Den-O series. Hell they had a very serious explanation for a few of the running gags.

Ghost is mostly silly, but it starts with the main character dying.

[fenrir]

I have to agree with Phoenix, it's always been about selling the toys. And I don't think the newer Kamen Riders are really that different from the original Showa. You had crazy stories and weird characters and humor in Showa too, just a different format than modern shows. And heck, Black and RX were criticized at the time for moving too much in the Metal Heroes direction.

One thing I've noticed with some friends of mine is that the first series we've watched has been our favorite series (Whether it be Kabuto, 555, Den-O, etc). After I watched Kabuto my line of expectations was set. I bet if I watched 555 first I probably wouldn't like Kabuto as much. I know a lot of you have been watching Kamen Rider a lot longer than me so that might not be the same for you anymore.

I do like to see everyone's favorite and least favorite series and the reasons why

funny as you 2 mention about it. I'm from Indonesia, and the 1st&2nd KR series that i watch is Black & RX. in here these 2 shows become a MASSIVE HIT, even Tetsuo Kurata himself come here & even until now considered a LEGEND for Indonesian fans. at that time we (as a kid) almost get awed every episodes of it. and so many merchandise (unofficial mostly) implement RX on it as well. so that's why for me, RX will be my fav series, becoz without it, i won't follow any KR, it's the roots of my interest.
I prefer RX perhaps bcoz i'm already 9/10 years old while wathcing RX, so i understand more of the story of it rather than when i watch Black (6/7yo). and 1 thing, i guess RX is kinda sad tone stories, and become very serious in the end (ep 40++).

and as Lunagel said, in here, after RX finished the Metal Heroes kinda have a little "Boom" in the some TV channel. BeetleBorg, Jiban, Winspector were introduced. and ya now i do kinda agree Black & RX kinda moving to Metal Heroes Direction. perhaps the RX sword is also kinda looks similar to Gavan sword in my opinion.

[Catastrophe]

I have to agree with Phoenix, it's always been about selling the toys.

Which I think is a reason that the first arc of the recent series have been a bit bland. Both Drive and Ghost have had this mad rush in the first 13 or so episodes to show all the extra powers or forms in order to get the kids to buy them and it detracts from the story. Both shows get much better following this.

They stumbled on a gold mine with W and the Gaia memories and now we have these Drivers with tonnes of collectable things.

[kikaida]

I was thinking the same thing the other day, after Takeru died again and everybody's hopes/prayers/whatever brought him back . . . again. But, then I thought to myself - wait - isn't he dead anyway? He's a ghost. Why doesn't he use Ghost powers like he did in the beginning? I mean, he could be invincible and kick-ass! Being a ghost we should see: invisibility, flying, possession, etc. We need some ghosts and ghouls and the like - that would be pretty awesome . . . anyway . . .
For me, Kabuto, Blade, and Faiz are my favorites with Gaim as the most recent series that I rate as exceptional, but then again, I'm an adult not a prepubescent boy begging his parents for Kamen Rider toys every week - but man, that adult size Kabuto belt sure looks awesome. Wizard had potential to be so much more, but Haruto was so bland as a rider, I didn't care about him at all and so I didn't care about the series.

[fenrir]

the thing i like about wizard is only the fighting choreography which shows each colour have different style, hurricane most notably by held the sword downward i think.
but agree with you above, even thou their design looks cool for me, the rings & the 4more dragon form really2 only emphasize in selling toys

[Revorse]

Wizard's fight are still some of the coolest in Rider history in my opinion. That's why I hate that his series wasn't the best. I mean it sucks having your favorite Rider in a so-so show.

[mholden020]

There's definitely been a change through the Heisei era. I binge-watched the series last year starting with Agito and getting up-to-date just after Ghost got started, and the changes from Agito to Drive were a little jarring when I looked back at the older shows. The biggest thing is probably the style the shows were filmed in, and how things were framed in-shot. Agito, Ryuki, 555, Blade, and Hibiki were all lighter on crazy camera movements and seemed to rely more on the actors and how well they could present the situations. It seems like the more recent series have shifted to a more Super Sentai style of show, especially with the MOTW thing popping up every now and then.

The pre-Decade shows seemed to have a more solid long-term story that lasted all year, with various mini-arcs showing up during the series. Newer shows don't have a very involved long-term story, and focus more on shorter arcs. For instance when I watched Drive, there seemed to be three major sections to the show: a Chaser arc, a Nira arc, and the Gold Drive arc. Ghost has done the same, having an initial "Get the 15" arc, a Grateful arc, and it looks like now we've hit the Mugen arc, which should lead into the end of the show. Gaim even went so far as to name the sections of the show!

That said, I have found the Post-Decade shows to be more enjoyable. I've got a soft spot for Decade since it was the first I watched, and Hibiki would be my favorite series of all time had they not ruined it mid-way through. After that, though, I've liked all the Post-Decade shows a lot. Of the first 10, it was a major struggle to sit through Blade and Kabuto. Maybe the stories were good, but the actors were irritating on a new level. To this day, if I see Kabuto on-screen I get the cringes. The only recent show I didn't like was Gaim. The final 10 episodes were like watching the production team run up on a deadline. There was such a fantastic story and world that got ruined by a lackluster ending. They could have used Gaim as a springboard into a more gritty series of shows, but I wonder how much the time slot is keeping them from that. You could never put Garo directly after Super Sentai, and I wonder if that's been the recent switch in tone and appearance for the Kamen Rider series.