What is going on with Toei lately?

It's more than just Kamen Rider and Sentai
User avatar
Des_Shinta
01
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:37 pm
Favorite series: OOO
2nd Favorite Series: Kuuga
Dreamy: Ayumi Kinoshita
Favorite Actor?: Steve Blum
Favorite Band: JAM Project
Alignment: Neutral
Contact:

Re: What is going on with Toei lately?

Post by Des_Shinta »

Catastrophe wrote:But it's more tolerable than what we have now.

The other thing that pisses me off is Drive and Dead Heat. Now they have a mandate for introducing a new form before the powerful form that happens before the final form, further relegating any previous transformations to nothing.
Kinda gotta blame wizard/Gaim for that, in a way. what with them shifting the production schedules farther back thus allowing the early-show super form in. 'Least Mach got good use out of Deadheat so it remained relevant in the show if drive didn't use it much. But I agree too many forms in a show certainly isn't good if they aren't managed well, and Drive certainly struggled with that more than other Riku Sanjou-penned series with how bad the toyetic-ness has been getting.


As for what's going on With Toei...I got asked this on Tumblr, and it's probably the compounding of a lot of errors that have gone back years, and I'd Likely date it beginning to hit critical mass back when Shinichiro Shirakura became the head of Production and planning in 2012.

Toei, Historically, has been trying the same things over and over again after a notable blip of success for decades, their work a cycle of decline after a big success only to crash, burn, and have something pull them out of the fire. But they often don't understand WHY a given series worked, so just DO more of everything in that success--even the bad stuff--but lacking the nuance to them which people liked. Thus, their repeats of past work all end up coming off as more...well, juvenile and unappealing with how they mess up. This isn't a new thing either, it's just...we've seen it all before done better, and in less irritating ways.
Using the spring movie events as an exemplar, All of the Taisen films are derivative of "All Riders Vs Daishocker", shown by how they structure them pretty much the same every time. And (with exception Z) fail to validate their conflicts as their justifications for them are in stark defiance of what they have the characters within them do, or what is possible/been done within the setting.

"Fast-paced introduction to everything including forms/riders/trinkets worked for W/OOO/Fourze/Gaim, why not keep up that pace?" Is likely also part of the logic for continuing it for ghost/Ex-aid along this repetition commonality; forgetting the form/trinket was either often not the focus, or a more minor point of an episode over story/character. And the fact that Gaim DID feel as if it's early-side was rushed to meet the december event deadline. Drive I feel an exception as most of it's trinkets it didn't dwell upon, but I can understand an opposing view like Catastrophe's about Deadheat as it did still have issues on that.

And If kyuranger's showing anything with it's recent episodes, it's that the series is likely trying to rip off Gokaiger. But it's failing because 1: it's rushing/heavily compressing the story so none of the points feel valid, and 2: Lucky is (making it 3 out of the last 4 shows that have done this, Likely inspired by Daigo) An annoying idiot that steals the show--both figuratively and literally--from his cast members who desperately need that focus. So if you don't like his brand of Hero that's always going to be in your face, you're out of luck.
I mean, I'm dropping Kyuranger because of how offended I was with Lucky telling Raptor it's okay for her to go and kill herself to achieve a dream of fighting alongside everyone, even though he was already told they can't FIX her if she gets damaged and everyone else is more concerned for Her wellbeing. That is seriously not how you handle such a storypoint.

Even all of you that are praising Amazons as the only good thing right now? It's heavily derivative of Ryuki (and to a lesser extent 555) in it's character and story structure with a resident evil paintjob. If you like those things it's probably clicking for you, but it's why I personally Don't as It's lacking the nuances and individuals that made me tolerate or like them. And a Ryuki-like series? We just had it, that was GAIM.
Then again, Shinichiro Shirakura appears to hate Gaim if his interviews are any indication.

With respect to the writers? A Lot of the senior ones have been alienated so they left to work on other stuff (Riku Sanjou fits here), drained dry of their capability to write well (Toshiki Inoue) or overworked severely (Yasuko Kobayashi). Newer ones commonly lack the talent to develop their stories as they have no-one experienced and successful to guide them; Shoji Yonemura a perfect example of this one as he had some stunning earlier work (His lupin OVA's, for some Sh15uya), but after Kabuto devolved into garbage. Coupled with Producer/Executive/Toyetic mandates and discourse, it's not surprising those still around end up writing something people don't like when they're not capable of what's being asked.

Not helped that Parental and censorship watchdogs have been severely on their ass as well. An Interview Gen Urobuchi gave in 2015 revealed that Toei is very easily influenced by negative reception from those groups. Urobuchi cited Fourze as an example of their impact; revealing it's treated like a black sheep because Parents who didn't even watch the show had it out for Gentarou simply for him looking like a Teenage gangster with his hairstyle; ignoring his actual character and the point of him looking like that was to subvert that stereotype. Thus, they've been getting into a cycle of 'to appease the masses we've got to write down to the lowest common denominator'.

But by doing that, they've made their content less interesting as everyone else is producing things more unique, stylized or with a Twist to it that hasn't quite been seen before.

The cinematography has also been dropping as well, so not even that is being seen as a merit-able appeal to the genre much right now; we've been seeing more and more curbstomp battles the last couple years instead of even exchanges that eventually lead to one side winning, thus feel cheaper; people going straight to finishing moves instead of using them to conclude a battle, a lot of it has been very sloppy. But that again may just tie to bleeding their talent dry only with the directors.
I know that a lot of the spectacle of Amazons' fights is just the gore, much of the combat unappealingly choreographed with how much it's been greyed-out, and focused on overwhelming power blows with little elegance; making the 'serious threat' of the show be little more than cannon fodder. Shown most explicitly with Amazon Omega ramming an Amazon with his bike so it explodes in gore...but is hitting it at a velocity that I personally have survived being hit by with no bruising. You really should not be presenting your monster faction as so weak they die from things normal humans can shrug off.

A point previously brought up that I'd agree with is the webisodes and extra video content; Before the story HAD to be self-contained. Now main story points needed to understand it are being spun off into supplementary material, and the show otherwise excludes context to those. And if you need supplementary material to understand the story and characterization within it, you're failing as a story-teller. Ex-aid entirely messed up the 'Saki is Kagami's motivator as a Doctor and Rider' thing by her getting less than 2 minutes of focus for such an essential plot point, now you've got to see Snipe episode zero for the full context that SHOULD have been part of the main show. And we're seeing this again with kyuranger; Spada and raptor having a more personal thing? Only seen in the web Transformation guides as the focus on Lucky lost them any chance to explore that.

...kind of went a bit stream of consciousness here, sorry.
Iamglory
Whoa. Neo is an anagram of One. Whoa
Whoa. Neo is an anagram of One. Whoa
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:12 pm
Type: INFJ Counselor

Re: What is going on with Toei lately?

Post by Iamglory »

My first time posting!

I must say that I have noticed a decline in quality in both series.

Drive I thought was a great story, I loved the theme song, I thought the many cars were stupid because they were just the purpose of selling new toys taht really only got screen time for a moment or two in the entire series.

I really loathed Ghost becasue I couldn't get into it. I actually liked the forms but I didn't like the story. I still don't quite understand the story and what was going on besides people wanting to make the perfect world.

I am semi-enjoying Ex-Aid. The forms are very disappointing to me. However, I ike the story.

Super Sentai has disappointed me for the last couple of years. I have been super excited about the toys, however the stories havent been good. The last fantastic Sentai was Kyoryuger. I liked the enemies, I like that the enemies were defeated. I was disappointed in Toqger. The story had potentail and so did the villains, but nothing really happened to the bad guys.

Also I like my mech forms spaced out and not shoved in my face right away. I am really enjoying Kyuuranger. However, I can see they will be shoving toys in our face really quickly.

Toei has an issue with needing to sell toys over story. That's not true. I would love to go back to a dark Sentai.
Catastrophe
ZECT
ZECT
Posts: 5230
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:47 pm
Favorite series: Kyoryuger
2nd Favorite Series: W
Quote: "When I first started, I knew everything about nothing and have progressed in the subsequent two decades, realising that now I know practically nothing about everything"

Re: What is going on with Toei lately?

Post by Catastrophe »

A point previously brought up that I'd agree with is the webisodes and extra video content; Before the story HAD to be self-contained. Now main story points needed to understand it are being spun off into supplementary material, and the show otherwise excludes context to those. And if you need supplementary material to understand the story and characterization within it, you're failing as a story-teller. Ex-aid entirely messed up the 'Saki is Kagami's motivator as a Doctor and Rider' thing by her getting less than 2 minutes of focus for such an essential plot point, now you've got to see Snipe episode zero for the full context that SHOULD have been part of the main show. And we're seeing this again with kyuranger; Spada and raptor having a more personal thing? Only seen in the web Transformation guides as the focus on Lucky lost them any chance to explore that.
Actually, good point about this. The end of Ghost had those 2 girls come up a few episodes from the end and someone said they where from something extra that I couldn't be bothered watching on account of Ghost being shit enough on its own.
User avatar
Lunagel
Mofu~
Posts: 11179
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:09 am
Favorite series: Magiranger
2nd Favorite Series: Gekiranger
Location: Japan

Re: What is going on with Toei lately?

Post by Lunagel »

Honestly it didn't make any sense even if you did watch the special so you weren't missing much.
User avatar
takenoko
Team Baron
Team Baron
Posts: 36699
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:33 pm
Gender: Toast
Favorite series: All of them
Alignment: Neutral
My boom: stick
Quote: <Lunagel> That's Toei's dumb fault
Type: ISFJ Protector
Location: Yami ni umare, yami ni kisu
Contact:

Re: What is going on with Toei lately?

Post by takenoko »

Welcome Iamglory, hope you enjoy your stay!
User avatar
hinomars19
Go Go!
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:39 pm
Favorite Actor?: Kitagawa keiko
Favorite Band: Koda Kumi
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Quote: Yui Koike is like a kitten wrapped in cotton wool eating candyfloss. This cannot be disputed. You try, I flip your table (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Location: England (sadly)
Contact:

Re: What is going on with Toei lately?

Post by hinomars19 »

Have to agree with everything des_shinta said. Pretty much hit the nail on the head there, except I am a fan of Amazons; but, even so I do agree with a lot of his points on the series. In a lot of places it felt cheap or 'tell not show'.

This problem with side content killed the FF13 series of titles for me, and FF15 is also void of proper content contained to the actual game. Too many important points are being thrown into other things, often over different media as well. I don't mind side stories, or supplementary material, but things still need to be self contained at the end of the day. It's not just a Toei or Toku problem.
I've also often wondered if my age and growing cynicism is just changing MY perspective, but if that were true I wouldn't still be enjoying Nickelodeon's Ninja Turtles show after 4 seasons, nor would I be buying nearly every Titans Return Transformer toy. They are still good fun, aimed at kids, but great for big kids too.

I haven't genuinely enjoyed Sentai since GoBusters, although Kyouryuger had some merits and I'm tentatively getting on with Kyuuranger at the moment. Rider is dead to me. Just so dumb now.
User avatar
Kogashi
Yggdrasill Dog
Yggdrasill Dog
Posts: 3169
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:33 am
Favorite series: Gaim
2nd Favorite Series: Shinkenger
Alignment: Neutral Good
My boom: OK KO Let's Be Heroes
Quote: Man should not live on carbohydrates alone, complex or otherwise.
Type: ENFJ Teacher
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: What is going on with Toei lately?

Post by Kogashi »

I honestly, wish I knew what was going on with Toei. Just, the more I stare at the hot mess Ghost was, how utterly dis-interesting Ninninger was, how 'gimmicky' attention grabbing Kyuurangers feels just with the tease of '9 rangers at once' aspect of it. I would honestly start worrying, if we start hearing bout 'first female lead toku' shows, despite my wishing for it. I don't follow their business releases or anything, don't even know where I'd look for it, but just how much empty 'content' they are releasing along with the episodes as well. It feels a bit like flailing. and I hope I'm wrong cause despite my hate of their clamping down on people reviewing their product, I still love it.

Dunno how connected live action toku is with toku animation, but they have a cg anime coming up this season, along with what they produce already. I've no idea what that may have to do with why their kamen rider and sentai have been lackluster as of late but really it just... this all feels weird. Like I've seen shows I didn't like, or un-engaging shows, but lot of them felt like there was still effort in them. Ghost didn't even feel like the writer cared to put in effort. to keep up with what they themselves wrote between episodes.
READING TOO MUCH INTO THINGS![/size] including random over analysis rants on pop culture, and Tokusatsu series reviews, if Toei gets off my back for long enough. Also follow on twitter @R2TMIT, or facebook.com/R2TMIT
User avatar
chronoxiong
Salami Commander
Posts: 499
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:14 am
Favorite series: Shinkenger/Gokaiger
2nd Favorite Series: Double
Dreamy: Keiko Kitagawa
Favorite Band: One Ok Rock
Alignment: Neutral Good
Quote: "Walking the path of Heaven, the man who will rule over everything." -Tendou Souji
Location: California

Re: What is going on with Toei lately?

Post by chronoxiong »

I'm losing interest in a lot of Toku shows now. Nothing seems exciting or fresh anymore. Ghost's storyline didn't help make matters better either. Made it worst. Sentai, I haven't been excited to watch even though I try my hardest to follow the new yearly shows. All the extra movies or spin-offs have been too much for me to keep up with now too. Almost makes me feel like I need to take a break and focus on my own interests.

Only Garo is keeping my interests alive and that's because Keita Amemiya is an awesome creator and innovator. He made a gem with this franchise. I'm more interested in the future series and spin-offs compared to the ones we see in Sentai and KR. Not sure what they need to do to change things. Sad.
User avatar
takenoko
Team Baron
Team Baron
Posts: 36699
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:33 pm
Gender: Toast
Favorite series: All of them
Alignment: Neutral
My boom: stick
Quote: <Lunagel> That's Toei's dumb fault
Type: ISFJ Protector
Location: Yami ni umare, yami ni kisu
Contact:

Re: What is going on with Toei lately?

Post by takenoko »

Man does it feel like toku is in a slump. A lot of people seem to like Build since it's not transparently terrible, but neither Kyuu nor Build are exactly igniting my engines. What do you guys think of the current Super Hero Time lineup?
User avatar
xiiliea
Humongous
Posts: 2183
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:11 pm
Favorite series: Ultraman Nexus
2nd Favorite Series: Ultraman Gaia
Favorite Actor?: Fujita Ray
Alignment: Neutral Good
Location: Singapore

Re: What is going on with Toei lately?

Post by xiiliea »

Sentai feels too kiddy for recent series. Nothing feels exciting anymore. In Sentai series from maybe the 1990s, you can actually feel that the protagonists are in trouble and you feel worried for them. Nowadays, it feels like they're fooling around and you never feel worried about what's going to happen. All the MOTWs are just playing around with no real intentions of destroying anything.
Revorse
ZAIA Tool
ZAIA Tool
Posts: 574
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 10:51 pm
Favorite series: W
2nd Favorite Series: Kiva/Blade
Quote: "For you, there is no finale."

Re: What is going on with Toei lately?

Post by Revorse »

takenoko wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:08 pm Man does it feel like toku is in a slump. A lot of people seem to like Build since it's not transparently terrible, but neither Kyuu nor Build are exactly igniting my engines. What do you guys think of the current Super Hero Time lineup?
Kyuuranger is okay. It's really the suits and weapons they do it for me.
Build is pretty amazing to me. I know it's just 9 episodes in but if it stays on this pace it seems like it'll be pretty good. Also Build seems like it might have a higher production value than recent Riders. It's shot pretty well. Anyone got any info on this?
User avatar
Mxylv
The Eyes in the Skies
The Eyes in the Skies
Posts: 578
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:50 pm
Favorite series: Ultraman Nexus
2nd Favorite Series: Kamen Rider Gaim
Favorite Actor?: Daisuke Terai
Favorite Band: GaGaalinG
Alignment: Neutral Good
Quote: Where wisdom and valor fail, all that remains is faith. And it can overcome all.
Location: Nebula M-78

Re: What is going on with Toei lately?

Post by Mxylv »

Kyuuranger I actually dropped; even when I was at a cliffhanger it felt like I had to make myself watch the next one. It's possible it's improved since then, but it certainly wasn't working for me.

Build has a lot of potential. I feel its characters don't always seem like real people in and of themselves (although the latest episode 9 helped partially solve that), but it seems willing to embrace a darker world, even if the main characters are more lighthearted. Some of the minor, episodic characters don't always have their problems solved entirely (such as with a father who lost his memories), and I found the political aspect of the separate countries a welcome addition. It's possible I'm just looking at the surface of a relatively shallow show, but it certainly has potential to grow. Again, though, my biggest issue is that they don't seem to get us to care about some of the major characters; I find myself feeling far more empathy towards the everyday people of the city than I do towards the amnesia-ridden rider or the man falsely accused of murder, both of whom were subjected to human experimentation.
Watching:
Kamen Rider Kuuga, Gotchard

Watched:
KR W, Gaim, Ghost - Build, Geats
Ultraman '66, Leo, Great, Nexus - U7X, Ginga - Blazar
Donbrothers
GS Sho, Dogengers S1-4
When in doubt,
Image
User avatar
Kurokage X
ZAIA Tool
ZAIA Tool
Posts: 426
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:26 pm
Favorite series: Kamen Rider Gaim
2nd Favorite Series: Garo Makai Senki
Dreamy: Kiriko
Favorite Band: Jam Project
Alignment: Neutral Good
My boom: Yakuza Video Games
Quote: "Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why its called the present." Unknown
Type: INTJ Mastermind
Location: Louisiana

Re: What is going on with Toei lately?

Post by Kurokage X »

I think Kyuranger is alright with some plot points like with Stinger, Champ, Naga, and Balance. The suits are awesome, the weapons are awesome, and two of the mechas, Kyurenoh and Ryuteioh when I'm looking at them as toys, are awesome.
But the series has points where I think they're trying to piss us off like with Garu since he has an interesting premise behind him but they did next to jack squat with him besides make him dumb. Hammie and Kotaro are alright though I would have liked more. Lucky is ok now though there are some points I wanted to shut him up mostly during his catchphrase. Raptor and Shou are good together though I'm still not a big fan of the latter when he's acting silly sometimes.

Build is going well but I still don't think of Sento as highly as I see others. Was it because we've gone back to having a protagonist that's not a somewhat Naive person after having to deal with Takeru and Emu?
Currently Watching
Super Sentai: Kiramager
Kamen Rider: Saber
Ultraman: Z

Finished Watching
Super Sentai: Go Onger-Gokaiger, Kyoryuger Onward
Kamen Rider: Kuuga, Kabuto, Kiva, Fourze Onward
Ultraman: Gaia, Nexus, X, Orb-R/B
Post Reply

Return to “Other Heroes”