Bouncing Subtitles in Shinkenger

[unmei]

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

the above quote illustrates similar theory quite well. it shows how the brain is capable of guess work and assimilating information if it is presented in a certain way.

when subs are done well, people don't notice them because they aren't consciously reading them. I think that by moving the subs around, you may disrupt this.

The quote might have illustrated it better if it weren't one of the most blatantly typo-ed things in existence.
I mean seriously. 37 misspelled words out of 69? I'd like to know where that's originally taken from, because I'd hardly consider anything that looks like that to be a credible source.

I realize that that's the main purpose of the quote itself, but it hardly seems necessary when the point could have gotten across much faster by actually writing it correctly, and has very little to actually do with the issue of sub placement.

That said. I'm not overly bothered by it myself, I don't think it's necessary for subtitles to be placed off center save for circumstances when it's a necessity. For the most part, if only one person is talking on screen at a time, it's pretty much unnecessary, from an accommodation standpoint, to have the text off to the side. When I started with sub placement with Den-O, it was primarily due to the fact that everyone in that series was constantly talking over each other, and unless I wanted the screen to be filled with 5 lines of everyone saying the same thing, I had to come out with an alternate solution. However in the case of a series like Shinkenger, when it's more often than not one line of dialogue at a time (I know there are exceptions to this) the end result of who said what can typically be achieved through a border change, thus keeping the primary dialogue centered, and giving a very obvious indication as to which mask is speaking.

[lostinbrave]

http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/cambridge.asp

Any way there was a discussion on this awhile back, and then we decided to leave them. If there is no really new evidences, or more support for it then I think it should remain the same. Though it does not bother me, and I have introduced a few deaf people to Toku, and they have commented that they like it.

[drag-5]

The quote might have illustrated it better if it weren't one of the most blatantly typo-ed things in existence.
I mean seriously. 37 misspelled words out of 69? I'd like to know where that's originally taken from, because I'd hardly consider anything that looks like that to be a credible source.

here is the original source, Medical research council of cambridge university - http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/people/mat ... Cmabrigde/

I would say, feel free to voice your concerns to the researchers. not sure if they'll listen but it's always worth a shot.

edit: to clarify, that is my original source, but not the original source of the quote.
but it's interesting reading nonetheless. the fact that most people can read that without a hitch is enough to illustrate the point i was trying to make.

[Saejima Kouga]

Important things are worth repeating....

Our ideas of "Important" are different. Especially since at that point in time I was viewing the forums from my phone and having to scroll through long posts of all the same exact thing as the previous. I think in some forums that'd be considered "spam".


But to return to the topic itself, I like the subcaptioning. It actually makes things more interesting to me, it's almost like reading a manga and it helps me keep track of who is saying or doing what. I think we should keep it as it is now.

[unmei]

While I agree that it can be read, I think most people would have to look at it twice before they realized exactly what it was conveying. If that's the point you're trying to make then yes, I agree. I think what it comes to in the end though, much like the quote, is that it's on an individual basis. It can be bothersome to some people, and unnoticeable by others. Left Side/Right Side doesn't bother me so much, when I look for a subtitle I have a range of the screen that I know to look at.

Top Center, as this is more often than not the placement for anything from narrations to TL Notes
Bottom screen entire. Because I'm used to it, I suppose. Comes from trans-coding MKV files for TV playback, as the text spacing gets messed up and in the end takes up any annoying large chunk of the screen that I need to adapt to.

As I've mentioned, though it doesn't bother me, I do find it unnecessary 90% of the time. I've just adapted me mind to it.

[drag-5]

While I agree that it can be read, I think most people would have to look at it twice before they realized exactly what it was conveying. If that's the point you're trying to make then yes, I agree. I think what it comes to in the end though, much like the quote, is that it's on an individual basis. It can be bothersome to some people, and unnoticeable by others.

really the point was that the mind can assimilate information very effectively when presented in a particular way.

good readers, when reading, the brain takes a snapshot and understands the meaning without having to read each letter or even each word.
with a subtitle presented in a regular format, I believe that most people will be able to 'read' it in less than half a second.
if it is presented in a way that is not normally encountered, then the reader may need to actively search out the new location.

regular positioning, the viewer may even forget that they are reading the subs.
different positioning, the viewer is challenged by a new position with each line of dialogue. they are most certainly aware that they are reading. and they may even miss the text if it has moved a fair distance.

I
don't
have
much
of
a
problem
with
it
personally,
I can adapt quite well to this kind of positioning because i have strong spatial awareness, but as you said, different people can adapt differently to different things.

I just wanted to offer my experience in this field as I work in languages with foreigners and with people who have difficulty reading.

[lostinbrave]

I seem to recall hereing about a movie a few years back that used subs, in a way that was very unconventional, differentsizes locations and what not, and it did pretty well because it did it.

[drag-5]

I seem to recall hereing about a movie a few years back that used subs, in a way that was very unconventional, differentsizes locations and what not, and it did pretty well because it did it.

I think in those cases, the subtitles are considered one of the set pieces, rather than a viewing/listening aid?

[Keith Justice]

My problem is that... if you keep it centered, and only shift when needed.... NOBODY is bothered. Even the deaf will be totally fine, because you can see who's talking. When you can't, then yeah... move the subs.

But when you are shifting the subs about you get a lot of people bothered. And I know the argument that we're a vocal minority, but I disagree. I say we're just the ones who actually speak to you guys in the first place.

It's just not necessary a lot of the time and distracting. Do it when needed and everyone is happy. Do it all the time, even when it's not needed, you get people that are bothered by it, people that get used to it, people that don't notice, and some that like it.

Why not hook everyone up when you have that opportunity?

[Saejima Kouga]

Nah.

[Go-On Macaroni]

It's just not necessary a lot of the time and distracting. Do it when needed and everyone is happy. Do it all the time, even when it's not needed, you get people that are bothered by it, people that get used to it, people that don't notice, and some that like it.

Why not hook everyone up when you have that opportunity?

I'm curious, did/do you watch Heroes? Because, bouncing subs are used a lot during Hiro's scenes.

[expjeans]

The "bouncing" subtitles in Heroes are different than the ones added by fansubbers because for one, the scenes are shot with the intention of adding the subtitles. Also, they're not stuck in the bottom corner of the video.


The subtitle is placed near his face so I can read the subtitle and watch the action too.


Can't say the same for this. I'm looking at the edge of my monitor and scanning across the bottom of it as I read, missing anything that may be happening.

This type of placement just doesn't work well for fansubs. Bottom center with wide margins makes it where you can take in the whole frame easily, not just a portion of the video.

[drag-5]

expjeans, I like your style.
I concur.

I also feel that people need reminding that when the show producer puts a subtitle in, the style they use is intended to fit with their goal. it's their show. not the fansubbers.
what right do fansubbers have to compare their fansubs with the show producers?
by nature, fansubs should be a facilitator. not trying to outdo the show producers.

this is just a statement of philosophy however. i know that many will disagree and i'll not try to force the point.
after all, I do still enjoy shinkenger.

[Keith Justice]

Well illustrated expjeans. Buuuuut... for the above scene, let's not be dismissive of the deaf folk that wanna watch toku. With these monsters that don't have mouths that move, how else would they know who's talking? The examples above do well illustrate tho how bouncing fansubs take your eye off of what's going on in a scene, but I don't want consideration for the deaf to be totally discarded.

[Keith Justice]

Nah.

...why?