Bouncing Subtitles in Shinkenger

[Keith Justice]

Hey guys. We talked about this extensively over on my forums and at least for the W subs, a working compromise was met.

Thanks to others who are more adept at how people read, I learned why it was these darting subtitles bothered me and others so much.

Once upon a time TVN subs were seemless to the point where I would often forget that I'm reading and not just understanding what was being said on the screen. It's been pretty damn awesome and a great job up to now.

What was pointed out was that the static central placement that my brain could always count on, had it so that it'd take a quick snapshot, translate in my head while for the most part I was watching the action and performances on the screen.

With the subs now darting about the screen... it takes you out of the experience for even a brief second, it continually breaks the spell. You spend just that much more of a second finding the sub, translating, trying to dark back to the performance on the screen and then it breaks up the experience.

I know it's just a split second, but that's all you get to see a subtle facial tick or gesture. I've been watching subs a long time and it's not 'til now that it's been so... distracting.

I can see the need of moving subs when back are turned and you can't tell who's talking, but even when it's clear who's speaking on screen, we still get the darting subs when I would rather be taking in the full picture of the actor giving the performance and those reacting to him or her.

KR W subs found the right balance.... can we get the same from Shinkenger?

[Keith Justice]

Should I have put this in the Shinkenger forum?

[Saejima Kouga]

Why is it you never post here for socializing purposes? =P

And one reason we do that is because we have deaf viewers who can't always tell who is speaking so having the subs positioned near who is speaking helps them distinguish who said what. And it helps me out too because sometimes I will look off to something else and when I glance back it's easy to pick up on what's going on.

So despite a few not liking it, it helps a lot of others out.

And just for curiousity, can I get an episode and time stamp for what bothered you?

[Keith Justice]

Thanks to running HJU it is now the only board I socialize on, leaving former internet homes like ToonZone and the forums of personal friends of mine just... ignored. Nothing personal...

As for a time stamp, I could get one for ya. But honesty it's anytime when the sub appears to an extreme right or left. Or any moving about just throws off what was once an unnoticeable flow of just enjoying the shows you guys put out.

And I didn't get why it was being done 'til we talked about W subs, but yeah.. I can totally see deaf users needing to and SHOULD be hooked up.... but: It's not always necessary. We talked about this over at HJU how a deaf person would probably pick up even faster than me on a centered subtitle.

Why not do it like in W where it's only placed in an odd place on the screen when it's not clear who's saying it? Otherwise a deaf person would very clearly be able to see who's speaking and pick up the centered sub probably better than any of us.

[expjeans]

I have to agree, this new type of positioning is way too obtrusive and I hope and pray that it's not going to continue on future shows. I kept finding myself gritting my teeth in frustration when a line was placed 3px away from the edge of the video that I just stopped watching Shinkenger altogether. It's a big problem when the typesetting is so intrusive throughout the entire episode that it can take all the enjoyment out of a show, you know?

[Keith Justice]

And for the record this is not an attack, nor a demand... but just a strong concern. I've been enjoying TVN subs for years now without a complaint. Subs were so seemless that I guess I took for granted how good they were until.... now... where they kinda flicker about the screen.

Just want things back to normal, or the compromise that was found in W, where for deaf viewers, the text is only moved when it's quite clear you can't tell who's talking.

Otherwise it's just unnecessary frustration when you can clearly see Chiaki flipping out, yet is text appears bunched underneath him causing just that extra second to split second for me to break out of enjoying the show to re-calibrate where I'm looking to read the subtitles.

Consideration for deaf viewers is a great idea that I would have never considered and I'm glad it's being done... but for both sets of viewers, could we just do it when necessary? Someone who is a teacher on my message board even said keeping it centered when its clear who's speaking is also better for a deaf viewer because they can snapshot that text faster than we can.

[Arigomi]

It doesn't happen very often in Shinkenger because the lines are color coded for when they are in the suits. It is also used in W to help differentiate when Shoutarou or Philip is talking. Unfortunately, color coding offers it's own set of problems including the possibility of errors by having the wrong color for the wrong character. There is one episode of Shinkenger where it wasn't fixed in time for the final release and it was mentioned in the episode thread.

There are also stylistic reasons for occasionally using subcaptions. Most lines need to stay on the screen for a certain amount of time so that people can actually read them. There are situations where multiple people are talking in quick succession and as a result, a lot of lines of text can get stacked on top of each other. This can create a visually confusing mess. When it is helpful, subcaptions are used to organize it for a cleaner appearance. Subcaptions are a lot of extra work so it is only used when deemed necessary.

I actually prefer subcaptions because I've found them useful for following the flow of scenes. It can be a little disorienting at first but you get used to it. It requires a little more concentration but I don't think that is such a big deal for what is essentially passive entertainment.

Remember, people who prefer watching dubs would find subtitles frustrating and obtrusive.

[Keith Justice]

I kinda figured myself it would take getting used to, which is why I've waited this long to say something, but... yeah, still distracting and off putting.

Following the actors helps me keep up with the flow of a given scene. Darting subs actually inhibit it a bit. Like I said, when it's not clear who's speaking, by all means. We should all be able to understand who is talking an when.

But not just because there's one person in a given shot.

Just saying.. when it's necessary. And even subtle shifts are off putting. KR W's got it down so that it's helpful and not distracting to all viewers. Shinkenger is second only to DaiRanger now in my heart.. I just want to enjoy it.

[XIII]

I have to agree with the hate for bouncing subs, I hate them and cant see the point to them,

I can see the point when several people are talking at once, but not all the time, when you do it all the time you are just insulting people intelligence, even when its painstakingly obvious who is speaking its still placed under the person, it can be insulting to the viewer,

I like the compromise in W, only moving when really needed, and then its not overly obtrusive

This would work well with Shinkenger, I would prefer this method to be used in Shinkenger, maybe I would enjoy it more then

[Keith Justice]

Hate's a strong word.... and I do know more often than not, if you attack someone on a given topic, no matter what and if it's helpful or not... they won't back down from an attack and everyone loses.

Juuuust wanna say I always appreciate the work and effort. Without you, I would not have this hobby or enjoy it as much as I do. I'm just saying after years of seemless subs... the quality and flow and ease I've come to take for granted from TVN is disrupted.

You don't notice what you have 'til it's not there and just stable subs... I didn't realize how important they were to the enjoyment of a show 'til they started darting around the screen.

[XIII]

yes hate is a strong word, but its how i feel about them, I dont like to hide my feelings behind words, I prefer to say what I think, and to me "I hate them" others might not and i respect that, I know lots enjoy the placements and I respect that, I just like to put my arguments forward in a straight forward and simple way,

[Saejima Kouga]

That's how Az always rolls. XD

Also, repetitive posts are repetitive.

[drag-5]

I've not really had any problems with shinkenger.
to be honest I have not really noticed shifting subs in this show.
I guess i have just learned to accept different ways of doing it,
however, I would have to agree, if i were given a choice, shifting subs or not shifting subs, I would say non shifting is better.
the reason is that the mind can lock on to a certain position on the screen and can actually read the words all as one sentence. especially with takenoko's good translation, it is well phrased and a natural reader can read a whole sentence in a spit second. when they move around, it is not possible to take in a sentence in the same manner.
if you have to scan for it, your automatic process is disrupted and reading then becomes a conscious exercise rather than subconscious.

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

the above quote illustrates similar theory quite well. it shows how the brain is capable of guess work and assimilating information if it is presented in a certain way.

when subs are done well, people don't notice them because they aren't consciously reading them. I think that by moving the subs around, you may disrupt this.

[Keith Justice]

Important things are worth repeating....

[takenoko]

I don't have much to contribute to the subject, but this is the perfect forum for such a post. Feedback and even criticisms are fine as long as they're not rude and they take place in the feedback forum