Kiva the series as a whole

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Kiva the series as a whole

Post by takenoko » Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:30 pm

Spoilers include last episode:
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So in the end, did Kiva really break the chain of fate? It doesn't really seem like it. If anything, all the series has done was show how much things kind of stay the same even as the eras changes. Even in the very end they show there will still be enemies in the future and a need for Kiva

Overall I enjoyed this series. I didn't really like the first part with Wataru's lack of presence, but it set up the story for the rest of the series. I think the "Faiz loses his belt every other episode" of this series was "Wataru's depressed again" though. It was a little grating for the plot to be set up so that Wataru was always being thrown back into a state of withdrawl.

There were a lot of little things, really, just minute things that took away from the series from being really awesome. The LOL, more time traveling bits (which I admit, were actually done pretty well). The useless one-time toy fodder (the big head bike, the super powerful awesome wonderful upgrade to IXA, Castle Doran, transforming Bat Kiva, the arms monsters). I don't think anyone enjoyed the "new Kengo" subplot, it just seemed completely unnecessary

Just to be nitpicky, it bothers me just the slightest bit that there's no distinguishable advantage from any of the IXA form upgrades. No explanation of what Kiva and Kivat are {I guess we can assume they're just Fangire technology, and IXA was based on them, explaining why IXA can use Fuestles?}). I mean, they didn't explain what Den-O or Zeronos were either. Since the series are all about these guys ant their powers, it seems like sloppy writing to just not explain where their powers come from or why they work the way they do. To the very end Megumi had Nago jumping through hoops while blind just so she could let him use IXA. I suppose that was supposed to suggest that she loves him, but c'mon, that's frustrating

I hate Kiva, I love Wataru like a pupil. I'm a dick, I'm Shima's dead. No, he's alive. Maya's dead. No, she's alive.

But post episode 24 I thought the series really kind of took off. I thought the Mio plot added a lot to Wataru's dimension, even if love always ends tragically in a Kamen Rider series (maybe the KR writers should see a psychiatrist about that). We saw less of the more charismatic 86 cast, but they were still pretty important. Both Otoya and Wataru really start to change once they meet their fated woman, and that visible growth is kind of nice.

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Re: Kiva the series as a whole

Post by Saejima Kouga » Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:45 pm

Didn't show Megumi's father, or tell anything about Yuri after her and Otoya broke up either.

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Re: Kiva the series as a whole

Post by Phoenix512 » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:34 pm

As I said before in the Kiva 48 thread, it's one of the better Kamen Rider endings but it had some rocky bumps to get there. I always hated why in the 22 years between 1986 and 2008 that there was still only one IXA system. You would think they could have built a couple more. But no, there was only one IXA.

As for the characters, Shizuka is just there which I deemed her now as most useless heroine next to Hirose from Blade. Shima should have stayed dead. They could have easily did his role in the end with a video message.

As for the good things, the second half of the series really kicked it into gear where Maya and Mio appeared as the Fangire Queens. The new Kengo subplot did have this effect though. It made Nago into a comedic character and actually made me miss the old jackass Nago who should have died in a horrible death. I was so glad when Nago return back to his old self but a bit more flexible.
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Re: Kiva the series as a whole

Post by William_Duel » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:18 pm

I just...don't really care who Megumi's dad is really. Although I think someone commented that a certain someone's reaction during the last few scenes was tell-tale (it was sorta wierd wasn't it?) but then I guess it would go against other ideas in the series (Megumi's dad is rich and owns a company right? I can't remember, I just remember her little brother coming in and buying her off of Aozora). With an organization like Aozora that money was probably pretty welcome, who knows how much it costs to develop IXA technology?
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Since there seem to be IXA prototypes anyways.
I didn't think there would be any differences from IXA to IXA anyways except for the user's fighting ability. (Nago mastered Rising, pretty much)

I didn't like Wataru at the beginning and it's because he fits a certain archetype that's common to nowadays (see Den-O, Gundam Seed, maybe the original Gundam, etc.) where the main character is pretty much this wimpy pretty boy who gets thrust into this incredible role and is forced to grow up with some much forseeable angst every now and then. At the end, naturally he's a badass but it always takes time.

Despite the 'Kengo Flop', he did have interesting changes as a character, I mean he was rocker to potential Aozora recruit to IXA to washout and back again (sorta). He was really a bystander who got sucked into it all.

I like most of the designs, although I did think the initial idea was interesting but wierd (the stained glass was too colorful at times) and I was not a big fan of Rook's design. Although I wished we had seen Wataru's and Taiga's designs...

There were a lot of oneshot ideas. The bike, while going with the Biker Vampire motif, was cool and underused like Take said. And then there were other things (didn't the Castle have a smaller dragon add-on?) and the Ixa-celion...or whatever, IXA's Castle Doran counterpart...a lot of underused ideas in this show. I can see the merchandising possibilities but they should have done more with them.

When I think about IXA's fuestles... I think something must have happened here. Maybe history was changed...? Because I believe that perhaps Dark Kiva did some more rampaging and probably used the Arms Monsters more often which probably gave Aozora all those ideas for all those add-ons because from what little happened there, they couldn't have gathered THAT much info. Hell this series needed a 100 episodes to flesh out every idea. But either way I was always happy to tune in and I consider the ending to be better than Den-O. Overall, it was pretty good. I just hope the writers stop slacking off on the origins of the Riders (like what is a Kamen Rider in such and such universe? Someone's devious experiment, an evolution, someone's accident? Etc.)
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Re: Kiva the series as a whole

Post by Primus » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:05 pm

Nice summaries here, good job guys! ;)

Well, as my second complete Rider Series after Kabuto (I'm up to 36 of Den-O and 13 of Faiz), I liked Kiva a lot, it makes me wish to see the older shows and Decade as well.
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Re: Kiva the series as a whole

Post by Oozey » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:12 pm

William_Duel wrote:I didn't like Wataru at the beginning and it's because he fits a certain archetype that's common to nowadays (see Den-O, Gundam Seed, maybe the original Gundam, etc.) where the main character is pretty much this wimpy pretty boy who gets thrust into this incredible role and is forced to grow up with some much forseeable angst every now and then. At the end, naturally he's a badass but it always takes time.
The difference is, Wataru actually DID change significantly as a character. Ryoutarou's change was miniscule at best.
Although I wished we had seen Wataru's and Taiga's designs...
Have we forgotten Flight Style already? Yeah. That's Wataru's Fangire form.
There were a lot of oneshot ideas. The bike, while going with the Biker Vampire motif, was cool and underused like Take said.
This is hardly a criticism that only Kiva can be hit with. But I'll concede it.
When I think about IXA's fuestles... I think something must have happened here. Maybe history was changed...? Because I believe that perhaps Dark Kiva did some more rampaging and probably used the Arms Monsters more often which probably gave Aozora all those ideas for all those add-ons because from what little happened there, they couldn't have gathered THAT much info.)
Are we forgetting that King never intended to use them as weapons? He wanted them on his mantel. It's much more likely that they gathered it from Kiva--you have to remember, the story technically begins in media res, with Wataru already possessing the power.

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Re: Kiva the series as a whole

Post by Battra » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:25 pm

The series a a whole suffered from marketing interference and lazy writing. Marketing got way more involved in the plot and was most likely responsible for the time traveling plot and thee the useless stuff we had in the series. Lazy writing in that the writers didn't bother to flesh out character's or plot and put useless people in the series like Shizuka why is she even in the series other than being a friend of Wataru's we never get any back story on her and she basically takes a backseat in the series as soon as Mio show's up to be Wataru's love interest. The series started out interesting but quickly devolved as Wataru kept getting more emo infact I think most of the cast suffered from being emo and really didn't pick up again. I think Kiva could have done better if it had better writing, less marketing tie ins, and didn't have to live up to the hype the Den-O created.

I bring up Den-O cause that's most likely where they got the idea for the duo plot line in Kiva and Den-O obviously did something right if it spawns 2 movies and many other tie in things, and marketing obviously wanted to capitalize on that success and added their two cents to the mix. But not to sound like i'm totally down on the series I will give props to Kiva for some good music, Ixa was one of the best rider designs i've seen and the major prop to the writer's or producer's (whoever had the idea ) to begin to break the mold of the female rider, making them actually useful instead of getting in the way.
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Re: Kiva the series as a whole

Post by William_Duel » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:21 pm

Although I wished we had seen Wataru's and Taiga's designs...
Have we forgotten Flight Style already? Yeah. That's Wataru's Fangire form.

I don't agree with this sentiment. It might be an evolved form that comes from Wataru's form but it's also a form of Kiva inspired by Emperor Form. And as we've seen with King, Kiva is an armor that has no direct relation with one's fangire form, only that fangires can take in the energy from the kivats to transform. It's probably like the Sabats or something and Wataru's real form might look like that, but that isn't it. It isn't even humanoid.
When I think about IXA's fuestles... I think something must have happened here. Maybe history was changed...? Because I believe that perhaps Dark Kiva did some more rampaging and probably used the Arms Monsters more often which probably gave Aozora all those ideas for all those add-ons because from what little happened there, they couldn't have gathered THAT much info.)
Are we forgetting that King never intended to use them as weapons? He wanted them on his mantel. It's much more likely that they gathered it from Kiva--you have to remember, the story technically begins in media res, with Wataru already possessing the power.[/quote]
This argument doesn't really work either. Since IXA was a long time in the making and if I'm not mistaken, the fuestles were already available since the beginning just never used (except for later and only once right?). Plus who would have witnessed and seen Wataru Kiva use the forms long enough to create some sort of hijacking fuestles? Wataru already has the power but I think it can be safely surmised that he didn't go on a rampage that would make aozora see him as such a dangerous adversary. Plus if he had gone on such a rampage, he would have definitely been very emo the whole time.

EDIT: Actually upon thinking it over again, the 22 year period is too gray to form any concrete ideas on, so it's pointless speculation. I retract part of my comments on the fuestles.
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Re: Kiva the series as a whole

Post by Mugiwara » Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:09 pm

the whole series was good but i think it started being rushed after ep 30
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Re: Kiva the series as a whole

Post by Bauffie » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:53 pm

Oozey wrote:The difference is, Wataru actually DID change significantly as a character. Ryoutarou's change was miniscule at best.
I think Ryoutarou had a nice character development too though. All he ever did was attracting bad luck energy, being controlled by imagins, getting bullied by other people. He lived a banal life, not having any goal or anything. By the end of the series, I think he pretty much got rid of almost all that. He took each step slowly, but surely.

In Kiva, Wataru's evolution came rather abruptly. One moment, he believes very strongly in something and the next moment, he loses trust completely, things like that. The series changes so much throughout the 48 episodes, that I'm not sure how I think of it as a whole yet.

Even though the story wanted to progress, sometimes, it just regresses. I felt like what happened to the writers was "oh shit we went too deep into this, how do we get out of it?" and the answer was regression.
Nago went crazy on buttons and started laughing like crazy on the ground while holding his precious buttons, and then in the next ep, he's all cool and went to see a medium with Wataru, Megumi and Kengo. Kengo became excessively brutal and then went back to how he was(aka sidekick) and blamed his lack of love for rock and lack of backbone to admit it. Wataru was supposed to be proud of his fangire blood, but it turned out that he had to be on the human side, so he forgot about his fangire blood.

But still, I did enjoy other parts of Kiva. Otoya with his quirks, the love triangle, the burning friendship, the burning Taiga 8DDDD, the lovesick Bob... Sometimes I liked it very much, sometimes I wanted to stop watching it. Middle-middle for me.
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Re: Kiva the series as a whole

Post by Ichida » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:14 am

Things we didn't get explained or didn't get to see:
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- Basshaa Fever / Emperor Aqua Tornado
- Yuri's death, or at least a mention of how it happened
- Yuri's husband
- How/why IXA was upgraded between the eras and gained Burst Mode, how it gained the Fake Fuestles, and WHY we never saw any of the three used more than that one time in episode 12.
- how/why Maya gave baby Taiga to Shima to raise
- when Otoya impregnated Maya, if it really was him... <.<;
- the supposed Darkness Pledge Otoya made with the Arms Monsters. He pretty much just said "Yo dudes, make sure my son doesn't die, kay? I know you hated being sealed up in that castle, but do just that again for about twenty years. Turn yourselves into weapons again so when Kivat II spits out a descendant somehow, my son doesn't have to fight without a sword, gun, and/or hammer." And they responded with "I still kinda hate you, but since your son from the future saved us from about an hour of captivity, sure." ...Yeah.
- as mentioned above, where the hell Kivat III came from and why Wataru has him
- more of Flight Style
- who the hell Wataru could possibly marry in order to have Masao
- why King was retarded enough to discard the Zanvat Sword without reclaiming it after he kicked Maya out, aside from setting up the plot point of Wataru getting it
- an explanation as to why Wataru had the Zanvat Sword while not transformed, and better yet, why he had it while STANDING NEXT to the Arms Monsters, who supposedly fused together to CREATE Zanvat to act as a Fangire-urge-restraint for the sword.
- why there was zero Fangire activity between 1987-2007 and why whoever had IXA between these times wasn't hunting down and killing the Fangire who escaped throughout 1986. :P
- Kengo closure. Did he ever regain his guitar ability or his place in Aozora?
- where the HELL Shizuka came from and why she lives with him, and why she knows about Kivat but not that Wataru is Kiva. Does Kivat not weird her out?
- what Sagarc was, what happened to it, and why Taiga was able to use the Jacorder in Bute Mode as Dark Kiva, and better yet, why he could use Snaking Death-Break as Dark Kiva
- why we never got to see the Fangire form of Taiga (and Wataru if he even had one aside from Fight Style)
- Dark Kiva's Wake Up Three
- why Castle Doran chose to hide in the middle of a random skyscraper in 2008
- why Castle Doran had the Door of Time and why it wasn't used more


...other than these, LOVED Kiva. :D

EDIT: The Spider Fangire's name is Ryo Itoya. Stop calling him Bob, people. >.<

EDITEDIT: Yeesh, I keep coming up with stuff to add to this list. XD
Last edited by Ichida on Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kiva the series as a whole

Post by Kogashi » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:52 am

Ichida wrote:Things we didn't get explained or didn't get to see:

EDIT: The Spider Fangire's name is Ryo Itoya. Stop calling him Bob, people. >.<
Never. Bob is Bob and shall remain Bob until such time that Bob is no longer Bob but indeed NOT Bob... VIVA BOB!
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Re: Kiva the series as a whole

Post by takenoko » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:56 am

Ichida wrote:Things we didn't get explained or didn't get to see:

Bunch of pointless details
You can do this list with any show. They're seriously not all that important

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Re: Kiva the series as a whole

Post by garfield15 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:12 pm

Ichida wrote:Things we didn't get explained or didn't get to see:

- where the HELL Shizuka come from
- what Sagarc was
I did kind of want to know these two.
Ichida wrote: - Dark Kiva's Wake Up Three
Wake Up Three makes an explosion that destroys the world. That's why it was never used.

Though to be fair, why did Toei even make that? I mean, they were obviously never going to use that in-show. They could have stuck with Wake Up 1 and 2.

As for me, I feel Kiva suffered some really bad pacing problems post-Emperor form's debut but it still had me coming back. I did enjoy the ending so I guess that's saying something.
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Re: Kiva the series as a whole

Post by ZGMF-X20A STRIKE FREEDOM » Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:39 pm

Well yea this is probably the first full Kamen Rider series ive watched since Kabuto (yes Den-O wasn't my particular cup of tea after i watched whatever amount of eps it took for him to get Climax form) and i was very hesitant to even pick up Kiva cause i thought it was gonna be another full blown kiddy motif. But to my pleasant surprise it wasnt really, i felt it was semi returning to the seriousness of the other Heisei Rider series.And at least it was a bit darker in tone but not too dark to scare the crap outta the kids, tho that would be awesome if they did.

As a whole i felt the show started off a bit slow, but as it went on it got better in story, Wataru meh he was okay not as bad as Ryoutarou tho so thats saying something. My favorite part of the series was when Emperor form was revealed, thats the key turning point of the series where they started going more in depth with the past connecting to the future especially with Maya and Otoya getting closer. The time travels were kinda strange to me at first but now i guess i see it was kinda necessary as Nago was able to prevent whatever as well as setting up the twist that Wataru is a half Fangire (even tho i had suspicions already) and second son to the Queen. The ordeal with the love triangle between Taiga ( still cant believe thats freakin The white knight Dan lol), Wataru ,and Mio (yea Asagi comming back in her 2nd KR series and wtf is toei in love with naming bad girls Mio ex: PGSM etc etc???) was set up well and somewhat tragic. Only thing i didnt like about the end was Wataru becoming "King" felt kinda sudden and pointless but meh i guess it was to help his brother in some kinda wierd way.

In the end not too bad of a show, i was more pleased with this than Den-O (i also started watching this because of Decade's next ep and because i kinda got pissed Den-O was getting another movie and rumored series).The music was sooo much better than hearing freakin Climax Jump being recycled a billion times, Kiva's OP wasnt too great imo coulda been better, however Tetra Fang's insert songs were great (especially Supernova, that was catchy and i love the beat). And lastly im glad the designs didnt seem half assed or recolored stuff like what Den-O had constantly.

Only dissappointment i can think of now is that Sagarc got abandoned after ep 47 -___- that Rider suit was pretty bad ass even tho i think the Rapier, Jacorder coulda been better looking and sharper lol. Also it woulda been nice if they translated whatever the hell Sagarc said to Taiga, btw was it like an old Fangire language only he could understand???
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