Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
- Magenta
- It's Time for Buster
- Posts: 599
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:21 am
- Favorite series: Fourze
- 2nd Favorite Series: Boukenger
- Dreamy: Nozama
- Favorite Actor?: Takehito Koyasu
- Favorite Band: 765 Productions
- Alignment: Chaotic Good
- My boom: Robots. Always.
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
Seriously, the people who seem to think this shit is 'cool' - as opposed to just plain useful - are the ones who know 5 words of Japanese and think calling shit 'kawaii' makes them look cultured.
It's a language. You know, like this one. I'm typing. It's not better. It's just another way to convey things used by a different culture. Leaving things untranslated if it's either going to break flow to translate it or lose meaning, great! Going "In this situation, this can be translated perfectly, but as a viewer I'd rather have it left as-is because I luuuuuurve Japanese." is just saying you'd like to dick over people who don't like it and don't know it.
It's a language. You know, like this one. I'm typing. It's not better. It's just another way to convey things used by a different culture. Leaving things untranslated if it's either going to break flow to translate it or lose meaning, great! Going "In this situation, this can be translated perfectly, but as a viewer I'd rather have it left as-is because I luuuuuurve Japanese." is just saying you'd like to dick over people who don't like it and don't know it.
ima sugu shutsudoukable
- Damage
- 01
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:54 am
- Favorite series: Blade/GARO/Shi15uya
- 2nd Favorite Series: W/Den-O/Cutie Honey
- Dreamy: Mikie Hara!
- Favorite Actor?: Edward Norton
- Favorite Band: Oasis
- Alignment: Chaotic Good
- My boom: F/S N, Glee, LOGH
- Quote: “I had a Gundam once. He was magnificent.”
- Oscar Wilde - Location: Miami, FL
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
I'm of the opinion that if you're going to translate something, make sure it's as close to 100% translated as possible. I can deal with honorifics, but I don't like them left in, or any japanese for that matter (aside from an attack name or such). Same thing with -tachi. Leaving -tachi in rather than translating what it means just comes off as lazy to me. To each his own though.
A good example of the type of translation I prefer is the translation for the english patch on Policenauts for the PSone. To this day I consider this the best unofficial translation I have ever read. Here's a excerpt from an interview with the project's main translator, Marc Laidlaw.
A good example of the type of translation I prefer is the translation for the english patch on Policenauts for the PSone. To this day I consider this the best unofficial translation I have ever read. Here's a excerpt from an interview with the project's main translator, Marc Laidlaw.
Here's a link to the interview if anyone is interested: http://www.4colorrebellion.com/archives ... t-is-love/My process with Policenauts basically involved reading each line aloud and deciding if it was something that a native speaker of English would say. If something didn’t sound right, I would change the actual words that the character said while preserving their message. I gorged on buddy cop movies when I began the translation too, which helped a lot, since if I’d translated the jokes and insults and such literally from Japanese, then much of their intent would’ve been lost. My aim is to have English speakers have the same experience, or as similar an experience as possible, that Japanese speakers do.
- gh0stwrit3r
- Kamen Knight
- Posts: 544
- Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:59 pm
- My boom: Grounded
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
I prefer saying 'sugee~' instead of 'kawaii', but only inside my head. God knows what will happen to me if I blurt that out loud in school. I do know more than 5 japanese words though.Magenta wrote:Seriously, the people who seem to think this shit is 'cool' - as opposed to just plain useful - are the ones who know 5 words of Japanese and think calling shit 'kawaii' makes them look cultured.
You make it sound like watching fansubs is my main source of learning the language. Believe it or not, I'm actually studying the language in college. And no, I'm not in any clubs of that sort in college. My experience with such groups back in highschool was just... stupid. I mean, H-games and H-anime all the time. I quit on the third day. And lastly, I will admit, I do watch raw episodes once in a while, to practice my listening skills.Korcas wrote: Also, don't depend on TN to "learn a little more Japanese every day", no offense to Takenoko, but he gets puns wrong too. The Naniwa incident comes to mind.
If you want to learn a language, learn the language, and don't depend on fansubs and weeabooing your way through anime clubs. It really sounds a lot like you're one of those anime club guys in college. No offense to you, I just always find that a bit concerning.
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
That's what you made it sound like, though. And the Japanese you'll learn in college is only the very tip of the iceberg.gh0stwrit3r wrote:I prefer saying 'sugee~' instead of 'kawaii', but only inside my head. God knows what will happen to me if I blurt that out loud in school. I do know more than 5 japanese words though.Magenta wrote:Seriously, the people who seem to think this shit is 'cool' - as opposed to just plain useful - are the ones who know 5 words of Japanese and think calling shit 'kawaii' makes them look cultured.
You make it sound like watching fansubs is my main source of learning the language. Believe it or not, I'm actually studying the language in college. And no, I'm not in any clubs of that sort in college. My experience with such groups back in highschool was just... stupid. I mean, H-games and H-anime all the time. I quit on the third day. And lastly, I will admit, I do watch raw episodes once in a while, to practice my listening skills.Korcas wrote: Also, don't depend on TN to "learn a little more Japanese every day", no offense to Takenoko, but he gets puns wrong too. The Naniwa incident comes to mind.
If you want to learn a language, learn the language, and don't depend on fansubs and weeabooing your way through anime clubs. It really sounds a lot like you're one of those anime club guys in college. No offense to you, I just always find that a bit concerning.
And honestly "sugee" is just as horrible as "kawaii". But don't worry, Japanese people who abuse that look just as stupid as Americans who do.
... same goes for the dreadful "EEEEH!?".
Why's it always the bad speaking habits that get picked up by fans anyway?
-
- Number 6
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:59 pm
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
well... But we are just saying opinions about the honorifics in the T-N fansubs right? Why so much pressure?
Also, "fansubs" is not a synonym with "translation". Hmm....idk, it's just how I look at it. We have the right to like leaving the subs 100% translated or not.
Also, "fansubs" is not a synonym with "translation". Hmm....idk, it's just how I look at it. We have the right to like leaving the subs 100% translated or not.
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
That's pretty much exactly like that.Go-On Macaroni wrote:Uh no, it was a lot better than that. (Ex. "Ore Sanjou!", TL Note: "I have arrived!")Uncontrol wrote:Or they could have just translated what Momotaros' said.
I imagine it looked something like this?
[ Image ]
-
- Mega
- Posts: 389
- Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 12:46 am
- Favorite series: Agito,W,Shinkenger
- 2nd Favorite Series: Hibiki,Garo,Blade
- Dreamy: Shihoko Hirata
- Favorite Actor?: Seiji Takaiwa!!
- Favorite Band: Shoji Meguro
- Alignment: Lawful Good
- My boom: MegaTen games
- Quote: We’re no longer children any more but, we’ll never fully become adults.
We can live on in that odd little transition. - Location: the velvet room
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
Yeah, I shouldn't. My apologies.You're saying this to someone who was raised in English Canada and now living in French Canada, doing my best to learn French. You probably shouldn't jump to conclusions like this.
Ginga o Tsuranuku Densetsu no Yaiba!!!
Seijuu Sentai Gingaman!!!
Seijuu Sentai Gingaman!!!
-
- Save the life
- Posts: 1501
- Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:57 pm
- Favorite series: Garo (and many more)
- Alignment: Neutral Good
- My boom: Iljimae 枝梅
- Quote: I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night.
- Contact:
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
At the end, it just seems like we are going back to same old answer: Half of em will like it and half of other don't.
I like leaving things untranslated sometimes, probably because of how I talk in real life as well (mixed of two languages).
No difference from other people in other side of world, they like to throw in words that aren't native to their country. No idea why it's cool thing just as why some people like pizza and others don't. Does it means people who hate em are wrong? Nah! Anyhow, I can't deny that I am one of em who enjoys seeing "Henshin!" or "Ore Sanjou!" That is just fun feeling, to reading that in subtitles. If you guys think it's stupid for me to enjoy it, then it's really not my problem.
Then later on accord to what I learned, I played with it going around in house shout "Henshin!" or "Ore Sanjou!" (For those who are wondering because of my background, I did it silently in my head, ha)
Not everyone gonna feel about it the same way, blame the free will if you will!
I like leaving things untranslated sometimes, probably because of how I talk in real life as well (mixed of two languages).
No difference from other people in other side of world, they like to throw in words that aren't native to their country. No idea why it's cool thing just as why some people like pizza and others don't. Does it means people who hate em are wrong? Nah! Anyhow, I can't deny that I am one of em who enjoys seeing "Henshin!" or "Ore Sanjou!" That is just fun feeling, to reading that in subtitles. If you guys think it's stupid for me to enjoy it, then it's really not my problem.
Then later on accord to what I learned, I played with it going around in house shout "Henshin!" or "Ore Sanjou!" (For those who are wondering because of my background, I did it silently in my head, ha)
Not everyone gonna feel about it the same way, blame the free will if you will!
Showa wa yume ga atta jidai dakedo, ima wa yume ga nai
-
- Whoa. Neo is an anagram of One. Whoa
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:54 pm
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
I'm kinda surprised to see my question being addressed like this and with so much discussion, though I'm really glad it did. Thought it would end at facebook.
I read through most of the comments here, and I am sort of in between. I picked up a lot of japanese from watching fansubs of toku, jdramas, variety shows, as well as learning from a japanese friend of mine. And for me, I know enough that I know the different meanings and significance associated with the honorifics and how they are used for the most part. And I can live with things like -san and -kun and even -sama being left in, since in English you would use Mr./Ms./Mrs. for most cases and it does sort of generalize the meaning. But, what I dont see TVN do is explain those to the folks who don't know what they mean or the significance they have in the conversation if it is different than the usual usage (ex. a young person calling an elder "obaasan" in either respect or as an insult). There are some groups out there that make a note sheet at the end of the first few episodes or make notes the first few times it pops up of the honorifics and what they mean for each new show that is being worked on. This is so that new people who dont know the difference and havent seen their previous work will start to understand what they mean. But with most of TVN's subs, we dont get that. It is assumed that the same people are watching each show and that no new people are coming. Keeping the honorifics intact but not explaining what they are or their significance does not keep the meaning, since the meaning is not being told to the viewers. I think if that was done for the first couple of eps in each season of a show, it would definitely help.
Now the ones that I dont understand why they are not translated, and a lot of people have alluded to this already, are "honorifics" like -tachi, onee-san, etc. Tachi is easy, i honestly dont see how this could not be translated. Like said before, nothing is really being lost. Instead of Tsubasa-kun-tachi or Shotarou-tachi, it can be Tsubasa and the others or Shotarou and the rest. Same notion is being addressed and nothing is being lost. There really isnt any excuse for that one. As far as Onee-san, Onii-san, etc. Those can be translated as Sis, Big sister, brother, big brother, etc. Though I admit, those can be trickier cuz they have multiple meanings. But, leaving them untranslated with no notes or anything does nothing to preserve the meaning if the meaning isnt explained.
I understand that putting notes every 5 mins is very distracting and annoying and we dont want to see it go out of control like in a lot of anime subs. But, putting a sort of summary or glossary page at the beginning or end of an episode will both help people understand what the honorifics mean and how they are used as well as give you a legitimate reason to keep them untranslated in the script.
I read through most of the comments here, and I am sort of in between. I picked up a lot of japanese from watching fansubs of toku, jdramas, variety shows, as well as learning from a japanese friend of mine. And for me, I know enough that I know the different meanings and significance associated with the honorifics and how they are used for the most part. And I can live with things like -san and -kun and even -sama being left in, since in English you would use Mr./Ms./Mrs. for most cases and it does sort of generalize the meaning. But, what I dont see TVN do is explain those to the folks who don't know what they mean or the significance they have in the conversation if it is different than the usual usage (ex. a young person calling an elder "obaasan" in either respect or as an insult). There are some groups out there that make a note sheet at the end of the first few episodes or make notes the first few times it pops up of the honorifics and what they mean for each new show that is being worked on. This is so that new people who dont know the difference and havent seen their previous work will start to understand what they mean. But with most of TVN's subs, we dont get that. It is assumed that the same people are watching each show and that no new people are coming. Keeping the honorifics intact but not explaining what they are or their significance does not keep the meaning, since the meaning is not being told to the viewers. I think if that was done for the first couple of eps in each season of a show, it would definitely help.
Now the ones that I dont understand why they are not translated, and a lot of people have alluded to this already, are "honorifics" like -tachi, onee-san, etc. Tachi is easy, i honestly dont see how this could not be translated. Like said before, nothing is really being lost. Instead of Tsubasa-kun-tachi or Shotarou-tachi, it can be Tsubasa and the others or Shotarou and the rest. Same notion is being addressed and nothing is being lost. There really isnt any excuse for that one. As far as Onee-san, Onii-san, etc. Those can be translated as Sis, Big sister, brother, big brother, etc. Though I admit, those can be trickier cuz they have multiple meanings. But, leaving them untranslated with no notes or anything does nothing to preserve the meaning if the meaning isnt explained.
I understand that putting notes every 5 mins is very distracting and annoying and we dont want to see it go out of control like in a lot of anime subs. But, putting a sort of summary or glossary page at the beginning or end of an episode will both help people understand what the honorifics mean and how they are used as well as give you a legitimate reason to keep them untranslated in the script.
- Phoenix512
- Rising to the Top
- Posts: 6806
- Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:29 pm
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
See what you can do when you just ask a good question.
I think the reason why we don't explain the honorifics because most of the people who watch our stuff came from anime or I would assume that be the case. There might be people who just watch toku only or jdramas but I don't really know (might be an interesting poll though). Well it wouldn't hurt if there was a post about the honorific meanings which it would be in all the forums so people wouldn't have to go looking for it. I don't think notes is the answer for explaining them.
And again, this is not about changing how T-N translators do their honorifics. If you want no -tachi in your subs, watch Yes! Precure 5, Heartcatch Precure, and Rockman.EXE Axess as they are -tachi free. It's just a discussion about why people hate the idea of honorifics in subs. Perhaps not explaining them better for new people is an aspect but I don't think it hurts as some people would think it does.
I think the reason why we don't explain the honorifics because most of the people who watch our stuff came from anime or I would assume that be the case. There might be people who just watch toku only or jdramas but I don't really know (might be an interesting poll though). Well it wouldn't hurt if there was a post about the honorific meanings which it would be in all the forums so people wouldn't have to go looking for it. I don't think notes is the answer for explaining them.
And again, this is not about changing how T-N translators do their honorifics. If you want no -tachi in your subs, watch Yes! Precure 5, Heartcatch Precure, and Rockman.EXE Axess as they are -tachi free. It's just a discussion about why people hate the idea of honorifics in subs. Perhaps not explaining them better for new people is an aspect but I don't think it hurts as some people would think it does.
- Magenta
- It's Time for Buster
- Posts: 599
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:21 am
- Favorite series: Fourze
- 2nd Favorite Series: Boukenger
- Dreamy: Nozama
- Favorite Actor?: Takehito Koyasu
- Favorite Band: 765 Productions
- Alignment: Chaotic Good
- My boom: Robots. Always.
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
IMO, as we move towards formats that support chapters, I think the best thing to do is have a giant "HEY, YOU. YES, YOU, ASSHOLE. THIS IS WHAT ALL THESE FUCKING HONORIFICS MEAN:" splash on the START of the first ep of any given show. People who know that shit can just click 'Next Chapter' and skip it, and it doesn't have to bother them at all. People who don't know won't have to blunder through the first ep blind before it's explained.
It'd also be nice to have a sort of rough 'chart'. Like, in order of reverance, -sama > -sempai > -san > -kun > -chan > no honorific. I know it's far more complex than that but people can pick up on that stuff, it'd just be nice to have an "In one sentence, here:" explanation.
It'd also be nice to have a sort of rough 'chart'. Like, in order of reverance, -sama > -sempai > -san > -kun > -chan > no honorific. I know it's far more complex than that but people can pick up on that stuff, it'd just be nice to have an "In one sentence, here:" explanation.
ima sugu shutsudoukable
- gh0stwrit3r
- Kamen Knight
- Posts: 544
- Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:59 pm
- My boom: Grounded
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
I apologize, I just don't really like mentioning what I do at school. And it's true also with other languages, there's A LOT of things you won't pick up just by watching fansubs/subtitled shows.Korcas wrote:That's what you made it sound like, though. And the Japanese you'll learn in college is only the very tip of the iceberg.
I've always thought the way they speak in TV shows is different from proper/polite japanese, so maybe it stems from that?Korcas wrote: Why's it always the bad speaking habits that get picked up by fans anyway?
On another note, kdramas, which cater to a different audience, also keep words that don't really have a definite meaning in english, like, 'ajummah' or the 'aniki' equivalent 'hyung', so I don't think there's actually something wrong with doing that.
Magenta wrote:"HEY, YOU. YES, YOU, ASSHOLE. THIS IS WHAT ALL THESE FUCKING HONORIFICS MEAN:"
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
Yes, please, do it like this."HEY, YOU. YES, YOU, ASSHOLE. THIS IS WHAT ALL THESE FUCKING HONORIFICS MEAN:"
- Kamen Rider Ookalf
- The Eyes in the Skies
- Posts: 2035
- Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:16 pm
- Gender: Male
- Alignment: Chaotic Good
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
Agreed. This was actually one of my big problems with TV-N's Gekiranger and Shinkenger subs. With Geki, like you said, I ended up having to go to Wikipedia every other minute just to figure out what the heck the attacks were actually called. Shinkenger... well, if you need to have an entire thread dedicated to crap you can't be bothered to translate, you're doing something wrong.Magenta wrote:Dear god will you get off your fucking high horse.
The entire point of a good translation is IMMERSION. If the viewer has to refer to outside materials, you have FUCKED UP. Big time. Because either they have to pause the video and go look it up, which completely breaks the flow, or they have to experience the scene with an incomplete picture, and you won't find many people who'll be able to retroactively be moved/saddened/brightened by something just because they suddenly understand it.
That's not to say leaving shit untranslated is a bad thing, but cover for it, explain it. Acting like the viewer is at fault for being left in the dark is a ridiculous and stupid concept.
Edit: Okay, I feel I should clarify. There is the concept of a rational expectation of knowledge. For example, if you're reading a book on advanced mathematics, they're going to assume you're familiar with long division. If you're watching a programme explaining the advanced uses of kanji compounds, then it's safe to assume your viewer has knowledge of basic kanji, grammar and a full understanding of kana.
But when the entire point of a fansub is so people who DO NOT KNOW THE LANGUAGE can understand something, leaving something unexplained is bad. It wasn't deliberate, in this case, it was just assumed knowledge - which is something we do a little too much, and it's regrettable, but there you go. However, when someone goes "Well, there's a perfectly reasonable situation in which I'd be experiencing this without that knowledge, and it's wrong to assume in this case" - which is a perfectly valid view - acting like they're in the wrong is just snobbery of the highest kind.
At the risk of sounding like some kind of martyr, a translator exists to translate something on your behalf. We use our knowledge and abilities to provide the viewer with something they can watch and appreciate. Acting like someone is somehow wrong for not having the ability to self-translate is like running a coffee shop, selling lattes, not having any milk, and then saying it's the customer's duty to bring their own.
- Magenta
- It's Time for Buster
- Posts: 599
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:21 am
- Favorite series: Fourze
- 2nd Favorite Series: Boukenger
- Dreamy: Nozama
- Favorite Actor?: Takehito Koyasu
- Favorite Band: 765 Productions
- Alignment: Chaotic Good
- My boom: Robots. Always.
Re: Japanese honorifics (san, chan, kun, etc...)
I dunno, I think Shinken, like Onmyou, lends itself well to nontranslation just because of the setting and the amount of wordplay. Like, those shows are so innately Japanese that, well, it's part and parcel of the experience. At the same time, I think the 'TL Note in (IIRC) semi-transparent font displayed only once' thing didn't help.
ima sugu shutsudoukable