King-Ohger 39 discussion post

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Poll ended at Sun Dec 17, 2023 11:37 pm

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Total votes: 9
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King-Ohger 39 discussion post

Post by takenoko »

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Ratings for last episode: 4.33 out of 5 (9 votes)

Somehow I missed Rita's fist pose on the status map last week

I wonder what's in the chests by Jeremie's throne

Man does it look like they're filming this against a video game

Just watching the episode, I don't understand why they were all running around with fake boxes

Oh, it's their power ups from the opening. But didn't they use these in the first episode after the two year jumnp?

Wait, is Nkosopa destroyed or not destroyed. Because it looks normal here

I mean, Hirubiru is too dangerous to allow to live. But remember how dangerous her power is, why didn't she use it in this episode??

The ninja swapped places with her? Why?

What is this weird conspiracy twist ending for why the ninja died? So weird lol

Like how am I supposed to feel about this episode? The rangers get new powers, and we get a twist at the end... but are these good power ups? I dunno, feels a bit hard to follow and very CGI. Like the Shugod power up looks very gaudy and slapped on to me. And everyone is moving around all over the place in unnatural ways and with the power of CGI trickery, so that's not my favorite. Was it a good twist? I think Racles is kind of interesting, but him and lord bee and hirubiru conspiring isn't like the most brain breaking twist, y'know. I don't really know that much about Racles or Hirubiru or the ninja guy who died, so that limits how much I'm going to care about what happens to them...

It's nitpicky, but also how I feel. I wouldn't mind if they did like one cool thing with their new cgi appendage, it looks cool in the opening. But I don't need to see every one of Jeremie's CGI spider legs slapping a guy around. Sometimes less can be more

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Why are we getting flashbacks to Prince?
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Re: King-Ohger 39 discussion post

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takenoko wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:37 pm Preview
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Why are we getting flashbacks to Prince?
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Not flashbacks.
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Re: King-Ohger 39 discussion post

Post by Yaiba »

Was this the equivalent of a full-team power up? In the past the team usually had to go through something emotional to earn the super powerful form. I didn't feel that emotional attachment here. And was the bee abdomen coming out of Kaguragi's butt??

I don't understand the plan. Was it just a big distraction so Shiokara can fly G-Tonbo up to the top.

The notion of Kaguragi conspiring with Racles behind everyone's back is starting to get old now.

I found it funny that a VGA port popped out from Yamna's super computer wreckage.
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Re: King-Ohger 39 discussion post

Post by Ruffinn Kein »

takenoko wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:37 pm Somehow I missed Rita's fist pose on the status map last week
I double checked the last episode, they never showed Rita's pose on the map at the end.
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Re: King-Ohger 39 discussion post

Post by takenoko »

Ruffinn Kein wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 12:38 am
takenoko wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:37 pm Somehow I missed Rita's fist pose on the status map last week
I double checked the last episode, they never showed Rita's pose on the map at the end.
Oh nice, I'm so rarely right about memory related sort of things
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Re: King-Ohger 39 discussion post

Post by Zerato »

This never occurred to me before now, but have Jeremie and Kamejim had a single interaction with each other since the time skip? It feels really odd that there isn't a rivalry between them given the latter's role in Desnaraak's death. For that matter, it feels weird how irrelevant the Bugnaraak as a whole have become since the space bugs showed up
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Re: King-Ohger 39 discussion post

Post by ViRGE »

This episode leaves me very conflicted. I even went back and watched it a second time on a different day just to make sure I wasn't being grouchy. Unfortunately, it hasn't changed my opinion on it.

On paper, this should be a great episode; it's checking all sorts of boxes. A team power-up? Hidden weapon functions? One of the unbeatable bosses finally gets defeated? A desperate reverse-heist? Betrayal among the ranks of the villains? In my head, I can picture exactly how to make a great Sentai episode out of it.

But that's not what we got.

Above everything else, this episode has two fundamental problems.

1) The reverse-heist gambit, which is what sets up the rest of the episode, is poorly explained. If the reverse-heist itself was a ruse, why did they need to storm the castle? Was it so that Yanma's lackey could get his mecha in a specific place? But couldn't they have done that without storming the castle?

This episode does not adequately establish (or explain after the fact) why the reverse-heist gambit is needed in the first place. If it is to serve as a distraction, that much needed to be better explained, as thus far we haven't seen the Space Bugs challenge the mecha in any way. If it isn't to serve as a distraction, then I have no idea what the heck is going on.

2) The big fight between the King-Ohgers and the Space Bugs is an ugly, noisy mess of CGI.

I could rail on and on about the at-times terrible green screening in this series (as I have done before), but I'll save that rant. Instead, I'll stick with this: because the team power-up is not a physical suit extension, it's all done with CGI. And coupled with the series' stunt choreography tending to shy away from shots lasting more than a couple of seconds, it's all incredibly frantic. It's a bunch of bright lights and explosions that are shifting position every few seconds, which is very hard to follow.

Complicating matters is that the use of CGI weapons means there's not a lot of physicality to the fight, presumably since it's harder to stage a fight with weapons that aren't physically there. Meanwhile, because of all the flashiness of the CGI, there seems to be multiple instances where the contrast of the image is artificially dulled, presumably to avoid triggering photosensitive epilepsy. All of which makes it even harder to follow what's going on, since there isn't clear and consistent contrast between the elements.

Finally, the actual broadcast quality of Super Sentai just isn't good enough for this kind of action. If this were on a Blu-ray disc, this is where the bitrate would be bursting to 35Mbps+ in order to keep a clean imagine. But broadcast TV isn't that high, nor are the TTFC rips that most sub encodes are sourced from. And if I'm being thorough, Anon's lower-bitrate re-encodes probably don't help, either. So a lot of detail gets blurred out to fit within those bitrates. All of which makes it that much harder to keep track of and clearly see what is going on.

Beyond that, based on this episode I'd assume there are some production issues that are leaking through into the final product. Super Sentai is fundamentally a 23 minute toy ad. When a new form or team power-up comes along, it's because they need to show off Bandai's new toys. But, in a major departure from the norm, this episode doesn't seem to be backed by any toys; that is, Bandai doesn't seem to be selling any kind of power-up related figure. Which is why, I assume, the power-up is all CGI; production isn't going to make physical props for things they don't intend to sell.

Normally getting the mandatory toys out of the show is a fantastic thing. More than once an episode has ground to a halt in order to showcase the new, shiny thing. But those are also the episodes where Toei often invests in more expansive and technical fight chreography - the kind of episodes where they break out Koichi Sakamoto and his team. This episode, on the other hand, seems to be a case of the inverse: because there aren't any toys, the crew went hog-wild with CGI. But they didn't bring the directing to match it. So what we end up with is a similarly high-budget, high-action episode, but without the expert directing needed to make good use of it.

In that respect it's all quite frustrating, because it's an unforced error. This episode underwhelming is Toei's own doing, when they are capable of doing better. Though I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, since this kind of sub-par action has been going on all season.

The highlight, at least, was Hirubiru's betrayal of Gouma. I can't say I expected that, and yet unlike the reverse-heist, it was very well explained after the fact.:)

Plot-wise, I am at least glad that the Ohgers finally have the tools to defeat the Space Bugs. Their being toyed with has made for some fun scenarios, but as we're coming up on episode 40, something needed to happen to break that status quo and let them start defeating their enemies.

Episodes without a mecha fight: 5 (It's just a series named after its titular robot. Who needs mecha fights, am I right?)

Next week: more Kyouryuuger?!
takenoko wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:37 pm Man does it look like they're filming this against a video game
Given that they're using Unreal Engine for the backgrounds, in a sense they literally are. It's efficient, but somehow it remains looking out of place.
Wait, is Nkosopa destroyed or not destroyed. Because it looks normal here
That's another poor choice on the production's part. The only thing they showed us of Nkosopa after Yanma lost a few episodes ago was its ruins. So I, too, thought the entire thing had been reduced to rubble. But then that wouldn't let them re-use the Nkosopa virtual sets for this episode. It kind of ends up undermining that episode after the fact.
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Re: King-Ohger 39 discussion post

Post by takenoko »

>Finally, the actual broadcast quality of Super Sentai just isn't good enough for this kind of action. If this were on a Blu-ray disc, this is where the bitrate would be bursting to 35Mbps+ in order to keep a clean imagine. But broadcast TV isn't that high, nor are the TTFC rips that most sub encodes are sourced from. And if I'm being thorough, Anon's lower-bitrate re-encodes probably don't help, either. So a lot of detail gets blurred out to fit within those bitrates. All of which makes it that much harder to keep track of and clearly see what is going on.

What would be a good bitrate/size to shoot for for 1080p encodes?

> Super Sentai is fundamentally a 23 minute toy ad. When a new form or team power-up comes along, it's because they need to show off Bandai's new toys.

That's a g ood point, why isn't there a toy for this? Is the show doing so badly that there were plans for them that got scrapped?
Wait, is Nkosopa destroyed or not destroyed. Because it looks normal here
That's another poor choice on the production's part. The only thing they showed us of Nkosopa after Yanma lost a few episodes ago was its ruins. So I, too, thought the entire thing had been reduced to rubble. But then that wouldn't let them re-use the Nkosopa virtual sets for this episode. It kind of ends up undermining that episode after the fact.

It'd be like the titans busting through one of the super city walls and then the next episode showing no collateral damage from the attack. You're literally making these backgrounds, worlds out of CGI, so you can do anything you want with them. Bizarre choice, Toei
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Re: King-Ohger 39 discussion post

Post by ViRGE »

takenoko wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:31 pm >Finally, the actual broadcast quality of Super Sentai just isn't good enough for this kind of action. If this were on a Blu-ray disc, this is where the bitrate would be bursting to 35Mbps+ in order to keep a clean imagine. But broadcast TV isn't that high, nor are the TTFC rips that most sub encodes are sourced from. And if I'm being thorough, Anon's lower-bitrate re-encodes probably don't help, either. So a lot of detail gets blurred out to fit within those bitrates. All of which makes it that much harder to keep track of and clearly see what is going on.

What would be a good bitrate/size to shoot for for 1080p encodes?
That's a great question. I'd start with using the TTFC encodes as a baseline. You're going to lose some quality no matter what because it's an encode of an encode. But going below TTFC's bitrate will generally cause additional quality loss.

Though there's an argument to be had that fansubs should be encoded using a constant quality factor (CRF), rather than targeting an average bitrate. It makes the resulting file sizes inconsistent, but it better maintains the desied quality.

(There's also an argument to be had that now may be a good time to switch to HEVC, so that things encode better at current bit rates. There's very little that can't play it these days. But I don't have the stats for that)
> Super Sentai is fundamentally a 23 minute toy ad. When a new form or team power-up comes along, it's because they need to show off Bandai's new toys.

That's a good point, why isn't there a toy for this? Is the show doing so badly that there were plans for them that got scrapped?
I don't follow the toys specifically, so this isn't really informed speculation. But I think we're seeing the final repercussions of the decision to pivot the series with the start of the Space Bug arc.

King-Ohger stuffed an entire season's worth of robos into its first half. King-Ohger, Legend King-Ohger, Extreme King-Ohger, God King-Ohger, Tarantula Knight, the kabuto castle (which has only ever been used once!). Since then, outside of the two-part Kyouryuuger team-up, the robos have only been used twice in 11 episodes. And one of those is the hangover from the aforementioned team-up (King Kyouryuujin). So depending on how you want to split hairs, the robos have either been used in 2-of-11 episodes, or 1-of-10 episodes.

The point of this being that, outside of the team-up stuff, someone has made the very intentional decision to stop pimping the mecha, and they made it early enough to get it front-loaded into the series. I don't know if this is a sign that mecha sales were poor, or what. Maybe they were going to pull a Go-busters and add another robo in the second half?

But as a consequence, they seemingly don't have any toys left that they've needed to promote in the show. It's just damn odd. And with the pivot, it hints that something isn't right behind the scenes.
Wait, is Nkosopa destroyed or not destroyed. Because it looks normal here
That's another poor choice on the production's part. The only thing they showed us of Nkosopa after Yanma lost a few episodes ago was its ruins. So I, too, thought the entire thing had been reduced to rubble. But then that wouldn't let them re-use the Nkosopa virtual sets for this episode. It kind of ends up undermining that episode after the fact.

It'd be like the titans busting through one of the super city walls and then the next episode showing no collateral damage from the attack. You're literally making these backgrounds, worlds out of CGI, so you can do anything you want with them. Bizarre choice, Toei
And just to add, normally I'd grant Sentai a lot of leeway here. How often does Tokyo get wrecked and is fine the next week? But in this case they made a whole episode about the entire kingdom getting destroyed. So it strains one's suspension of disbelief, even by Sentai standards.
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Re: King-Ohger 39 discussion post

Post by takenoko »

>What would be a good bitrate/size to shoot for for 1080p encodes?[/quote]That's a great question. I'd start with using the TTFC encodes as a baseline. You're going to lose some quality no matter what because it's an encode of an encode. But going below TTFC's bitrate will generally cause additional quality loss.

This week's King and GOtchard were 4218 Kbps and 3986 Kbps resulting in a nearly 700 mb file. Anon uses two pass at 3800 so it's a little lower, but not that much lower

>Though there's an argument to be had that fansubs should be encoded using a constant quality factor (CRF), rather than targeting an average bitrate. It makes the resulting file sizes inconsistent, but it better maintains the desied quality.

Hmmm, I don't really know how the quality is judged in those cases. THe default is 23 in megui and handbrake

>(There's also an argument to be had that now may be a good time to switch to HEVC, so that things encode better at current bit rates. There's very little that can't play it these days. But I don't have the stats for that)

is that h265? I'd love to learn if someone taught me. I mean, I could take an encode and reencode it with handbrake, but that's probably not ideal

>Maybe they were going to pull a Go-busters and add another robo in the second half?

I mean it's Sentai. Why aren't they adding a new robo right before Christmas time?
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Re: King-Ohger 39 discussion post

Post by ViRGE »

takenoko wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:47 pm
>What would be a good bitrate/size to shoot for for 1080p encodes?
That's a great question. I'd start with using the TTFC encodes as a baseline. You're going to lose some quality no matter what because it's an encode of an encode. But going below TTFC's bitrate will generally cause additional quality loss.

This week's King and GOtchard were 4218 Kbps and 3986 Kbps resulting in a nearly 700 mb file. Anon uses two pass at 3800 so it's a little lower, but not that much lower
Just doing a reencode is probably doing as much damage as a lower bit-rate. I have admittedly not looked through the TTFC raws lately, but unless something has changed, they've never been great. Better than broadcast for sure, but not on the level of a major streaming service such as Netflix. A good 1080p encode starts at 5Mbps, so they're already starting below par.

Ultimately, going higher than TTFC's bitrate likely isn't worth it. But matching it may prove worthwhile.
>Though there's an argument to be had that fansubs should be encoded using a constant quality factor (CRF), rather than targeting an average bitrate. It makes the resulting file sizes inconsistent, but it better maintains the desied quality.

Hmmm, I don't really know how the quality is judged in those cases. THe default is 23 in megui and handbrake
It's an arbitrary quality factor; the lower the number, the higher the quality. The idea being to toy with it until you find a CRF that gives you the quality you want at a file size you can live with, and then use that in the future. For x264, 23 would be at the lower end for an HD video file.
>(There's also an argument to be had that now may be a good time to switch to HEVC, so that things encode better at current bit rates. There's very little that can't play it these days. But I don't have the stats for that)

is that h265? I'd love to learn if someone taught me. I mean, I could take an encode and reencode it with handbrake, but that's probably not ideal
Correct, that's H.265. By and large it's just something you swap out H.264 for in your video processing workflow. The ideal setting values are a bit different, but on the whole it doesn't behave wildly different. But you wouldn't reencode an H.264 release with it; you'd use it in place of H.264 for encoding a release.

The key is that it should give you similar quality to an H.264 file at about 65-70% of the video bitrate. Or a better image (closer to the source) for the same bitrate.
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Re: King-Ohger 39 discussion post

Post by takenoko »

>I have admittedly not looked through the TTFC raws lately, but unless something has changed, they've never been great. Better than broadcast for sure, but not on the level of a major streaming service such as Netflix. A good 1080p encode starts at 5Mbps, so they're already starting below par.

Yeah, that's probably the case

>Ultimately, going higher than TTFC's bitrate likely isn't worth it. But matching it may prove worthwhile.

Hm, I could try it, it's only a bit more

I wonder if there's a tutorial for how to encode with 265. Let me ask around since none of us in the group are big encoder people
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