Dragon Knight in America

[Go-On Macaroni]

4Kids sucks..

Granted they do, but gosh...All I have to say is..:

Yeah, but they're not free from blame since they cancelled it and all. :/

[D_B]

I keep seeing posts in here with comments like,
"Purist Fools" or "Elitist Rabid Fanboy"...
and I don't like seeing them at all. Name calling is childish, especially when it's over something as personalized as an opinion.

Let me throw a few wild concepts out there to maybe soften the blow to Dragon knight fans that do not understand why so many Ryuki fans despised the show...

1) If someone liked the storyline and/or actors in Ryuki, why would they not want the entire US/EU population to see that story, instead of something that someone not affiliated with Kamen Rider, that has nothing invested in the reputation of Kamen Rider, and no connection to the history of the series dreamed up?

2) I personally felt like the series was insulting to everyone watching it. Yep, I said it. Did the people that opted to "Americanize" the show really feel that it's core story was "too advanced" or "too frightening" for children? What was it about this series (that alot of us LOVED) that was so horrible it had to be so radically "changed" to be acceptable outside of Japan?

3) Yes, some of us are breathing a sigh of relief that the show crashed... I think they should have finished airing the series in it's normal timeslot for those that have spent the season viewing and following the series, to not do so only alienates them and makes them afraid to watch new shows later... but we are happy it crashed because it means none of the other Kamen Rider shows will be "bastardized" by rewrites.

In closing... it's not that we all hated Dragon Knight, and it's not that our disdain of it makes us "purists" or should make anyone feel like they have been attacked at a personal level... it's more that we know how great Ryuki is as a series, and we don't understand why anyone would want to so radically change it into something so different (and obviously less appealing, if ratings are any indication).

Ideally, I personally would *LOVE* to see every Kamen Rider series released in English so everyone can enjoy the shows I so treasure. If they were simply subtitled, many of us would love it, but the masses would not accept it. But an actual "Americanization" should involve keeping as much of the original story as possible, instead of just randomly changing things for reasons that nobody seems to have a reasonable explanation about, when the show was able to stand so well on it's own in it's original form.

It is my hope that if another of my favorite shows is "Americanized", the script will stay mostly the same as the original, translated of course. If a series were successful in it's original form, it should be "Americanized" to capitalize on it's strengths, and hopefully succeed on those same strengths, rather than altered into... something that may actually bomb.

Until we have a chance to see one of these wonderful series accurately "Americanized" rather than "bastardized", we will have no idea how well they could have stood on their own merits, but we certainly know how badly they can fail when they are handled the way they have been.

Just my thoughts, take them for what they are.

*edit*
because my Engrish was not so gud today, akshully.

[KickHopper]

1) Um, the series was written by Kamen Rider fans. The Wang brothers are noted to be huge fans of the original Kamen Rider franchise

2) What's the point of having writers for a show if they're essentially just going to copy another show completely. Also, the original story of Ryuki would not have ever been allowed for a children's show here. Regulations prevent such a show for children, a show which allows for pointless killing of human beings. Now, if the Kamen Riders were rewritten to be robots (taking a page from the original 1980s Ninja Turtles), the original story line could have been kept if that minor tweaking. The only way otherwise would have been to market the show toward adults instead.

3) Don't forget that most of the people who got into tokusatsu, owe it to such "bastardized" shows for getting them interested in the first place. Whether TVN and other fansub groups choose to admit it or not, most of their user base (and donaters) got here thanks to such shows as Power Rangers, Beetleborgs, Superhuman Samurai Syber Squad, and VR Troopers. And you may say that Dragon Knight was a "bastardized" show, but those of us who actually followed it, and who know some of the history of the Wang brothers who wrote for it, know that is far more a homage to Kamen Rider than a "bastardized" version.

Dragon Knight does not belittle Ryuki in any way, and everyone who flames Dragon Knight acts like it did. Also, you can't say that a direct translation of the original shows would be a great "Americanization" because that completely goes against the definition of the word. You cannot have a direct translation of a show in Japan to show to American children. Adults yes, children no. And not just because the regulations are different, but because the cultural points and references are different to. And if you're going to have to rewrite the cultural references, you might as well rewrite the show.

[kokowaks]

1) Um, the series was written by Kamen Rider fans. The Wang brothers are noted to be huge fans of the original Kamen Rider franchise

2) What's the point of having writers for a show if they're essentially just going to copy another show completely. Also, the original story of Ryuki would not have ever been allowed for a children's show here. Regulations prevent such a show for children, a show which allows for pointless killing of human beings. Now, if the Kamen Riders were rewritten to be robots (taking a page from the original 1980s Ninja Turtles), the original story line could have been kept if that minor tweaking. The only way otherwise would have been to market the show toward adults instead.

3) Don't forget that most of the people who got into tokusatsu, owe it to such "bastardized" shows for getting them interested in the first place. Whether TVN and other fansub groups choose to admit it or not, most of their user base (and donaters) got here thanks to such shows as Power Rangers, Beetleborgs, Superhuman Samurai Syber Squad, and VR Troopers. And you may say that Dragon Knight was a "bastardized" show, but those of us who actually followed it, and who know some of the history of the Wang brothers who wrote for it, know that is far more a homage to Kamen Rider than a "bastardized" version.

Dragon Knight does not belittle Ryuki in any way, and everyone who flames Dragon Knight acts like it did. Also, you can't say that a direct translation of the original shows would be a great "Americanization" because that completely goes against the definition of the word. You cannot have a direct translation of a show in Japan to show to American children. Adults yes, children no. And not just because the regulations are different, but because the cultural points and references are different to. And if you're going to have to rewrite the cultural references, you might as well rewrite the show.

very well said...

i guess i agree with the whole adult show... but i think its a bit difficult for them to introduce... they will just think of it as childish... they need to have a different approach rather than just presenting those exploding scenes

[Tetra_Urataros]

Yeah, but they're not free from blame since they cancelled it and all. :/

I never said they were free from any blame; however, I'm just tired of all the nagging. Just sign the petition and move on.

[MacGyver572]

I remember rumors a few years back when Ryukendo came out that they were planning on adapting it for american viewers. I believe that either that or Garo would be a good next step towards creating a western toku...

another thing... about the KRDK toys... they suck... i've only heard stories from my cousins and what i can see in the packaging... but i was looking forward to some ryuki toys, but the articulation appears to be horrible... i liked the idea of taking the weapons from the monsters like it's supposed to be, but the actual rider's helmet flips up, the arms (if i remember correctly) don't bend or extend out to the side... i believe the reason the KR toys are not selling as well as the PR toys is because of the quality. if you notice, the megazords used to be made of much better quality plastic and looked nice, now they're skimping on paint and details, and (i dont' know the american name) Bear-R looks mean in the american toy... Geki had good quality toys til they decided to not release the auxillary zords in that form... the quality of those sucked too.. and now i can't find the last 3 RPM megazords... if KRDK made better toys, they would probably sell better.. but i could be wrong

And idea for adult show... use Kabuto.. they're all fighting each other in that one too.. for the most part

[CrimsonJoker]

^
So what your saying is, you want American versions of THE FIRST and THE NEXT.

They just need to bring Garo.

...That would be perfect! I would love it if anyone would adapt GARO here!

How?! It ould be automatically delegated to Adult Swim....

Spoiler

GENIUS! Genius I say!

Well thats the only way I see without it going through an overdose of Lighter and Fluffier.

[DarkProject]

I'm sad to see DK go. It's a shame that as a fanbase, we'd be so divided over this. As a Transformers fan, if I jumped ship every time there was revamp of the old stories, I'd be out of stuff to watch.

It is surprising for a group that sees their favorite characters replaced after only a year or so in the spotlight to be so upset that a different show was created. Why is it so hard to accept? Is it the fact that they reuse footage? If there was a completely original American Kamen Rider would that be okay?

The reworkings or remakes invigorate newer fans to discover the originals. You think if KRDK was a smash hit that we wouldn't see Ryuki and other Kamen Riders brought over in their original forms? Power Rangers brought a generation of fans to Toku.

[Crimzonite]

My question for you guys is: why does a "western Tokusatsu" have to be a Japanese show brought over here? Why not have shows that are 100% made in the West (or at least with some assistance from a Japanese company in a joint production)? In recent years there have been some anime-style cartoons made in the West. Avatar: The Last Airbender is a good example. And the Teen Titans cartoon, while based on a comic book series, is clearly drawn to resemble anime (it even has a Japanese opening that is played occasionally).

And as I mentioned here earlier, there have been a few tokusatsu shows that were made in the West that were 100% made from scratch.

[KickHopper]

I'm all for home made "tokusatsu". I loved Mystic Knights of TirNaNog.

[DarkProject]

My question for you guys is: why does a "western Tokusatsu" have to be a Japanese show brought over here? Why not have shows that are 100% made in the West (or at least with some assistance from a Japanese company in a joint production)? In recent years there have been some anime-style cartoons made in the West. Avatar: The Last Airbender is a good example. And the Teen Titans cartoon, while based on a comic book series, is clearly drawn to resemble anime (it even has a Japanese opening that is played occasionally).

And as I mentioned here earlier, there have been a few tokusatsu shows that were made in the West that were 100% made from scratch.

I agree that US Toku would be amazing. The problem is that it remains cheaper to adapt, and with the failure of the fandom to embrace the much cheaper adaptations, it becomes impossible to justify an original production on the part of the people with the money.

[AkuTenshiiZero]

Off the top of my head all I remember is Mystic Knights of Tir Na Nog. Which, for the record, was an awesome show that seems to have been entirely lost with time. If another series akin to MK was made, I would be very pleased.

Other than that...The Guyver movies, but even if they were 100% American-made footage and props they were based on an anime, so dunno if they count.

Still, though...I still want to see Kamen Rider remade in America for the simple fact that it is Kamen Rider. It's a unique flavor that can't be replaced.

[Saejima Kouga]

Here was the schedule:

Kamen Rider Dragon Knight

[Kamen Rider Raven]

The hell?! They canceled it with two episodes left?! What kind of shit is this?

Low ratings my ass. I bet it was just like Firefly. That show got canceled because of low ratings, but they never took into consideration people who DVR it. I have NEVER watched DK live. I recorded it and watched it at my convenience. Sometimes I would let it build up for a few weeks.

Geeze. Dragon Knight was the only damn show I watched on CW. I was hoping that the KR series was in good hands. Hell, this is the show that got my wife into Kamen Rider (The same person who dismissed Kabuto after one episode)

Ugh. This is so upsetting.

1) Um, the series was written by Kamen Rider fans. The Wang brothers are noted to be huge fans of the original Kamen Rider franchise

2) What's the point of having writers for a show if they're essentially just going to copy another show completely. Also, the original story of Ryuki would not have ever been allowed for a children's show here. Regulations prevent such a show for children, a show which allows for pointless killing of human beings. Now, if the Kamen Riders were rewritten to be robots (taking a page from the original 1980s Ninja Turtles), the original story line could have been kept if that minor tweaking. The only way otherwise would have been to market the show toward adults instead.

3) Don't forget that most of the people who got into tokusatsu, owe it to such "bastardized" shows for getting them interested in the first place. Whether TVN and other fansub groups choose to admit it or not, most of their user base (and donaters) got here thanks to such shows as Power Rangers, Beetleborgs, Superhuman Samurai Syber Squad, and VR Troopers. And you may say that Dragon Knight was a "bastardized" show, but those of us who actually followed it, and who know some of the history of the Wang brothers who wrote for it, know that is far more a homage to Kamen Rider than a "bastardized" version.

Dragon Knight does not belittle Ryuki in any way, and everyone who flames Dragon Knight acts like it did. Also, you can't say that a direct translation of the original shows would be a great "Americanization" because that completely goes against the definition of the word. You cannot have a direct translation of a show in Japan to show to American children. Adults yes, children no. And not just because the regulations are different, but because the cultural points and references are different to. And if you're going to have to rewrite the cultural references, you might as well rewrite the show.

*claps*

I agree. To those who watched both of these shows, I can't see how they can't see it as a homage. It had it's problems, but you know what? It didn't insult my intelligence like some american adaptations of japanese shows do. Personally, the advent void was a good idea in order to get around the death issue. Hell, even when the Advent Master was revealed that it was a fail safe for death, the fact that he wasn't around made it a prison for eternity. IMO, that's a little worse than death.

And I did get into Toku because of Power Rangers. Most of us have.

As for american made Toku. I didn't like Mystic Knights at first, but after watching a few episodes down the line, I was slowly starting to get into it....and then they canceled it.

The only other American made "Toku" I know of was Tattooed Teenage Alien Fighters from Beverly Hills. I've panned that show for YEARS, but upon thinking about it, it had potential. If they had put some time into it instead of trying to cash in on the popularity of PR, it might have went somewhere.

[D_B]

1) Um, the series was written by Kamen Rider fans. The Wang brothers are noted to be huge fans of the original Kamen Rider franchise

And how exactly do they have alot invested into it? My original point was saying that Toei has DECADES invested into the franchise. As fans, we don't have anywhere near as much invested. According to your post anyone writing fanfiction is pretty much equal to Toei, and that is not at all how I see the matter.

2) What's the point of having writers for a show if they're essentially just going to copy another show completely. Also, the original story of Ryuki would not have ever been allowed for a children's show here. Regulations prevent such a show for children, a show which allows for pointless killing of human beings. Now, if the Kamen Riders were rewritten to be robots (taking a page from the original 1980s Ninja Turtles), the original story line could have been kept if that minor tweaking. The only way otherwise would have been to market the show toward adults instead.

What is *NOT* the point to keeping the original story? Would there not be very upset fans if the American version of Final Fantasy was RADICALLY different from the original Japanese? Step down from your high horse and look at this with me for a second, please. If Final Fantasy was radically changed so that none of the personalities, locations or storyline in the American release was anything like the Japanese version, just how many angry and rabid fans would feel alienated and irate? How is this so different? If the original was fantastic and we loved it, should it not get an equal chance to thrive as it was originally designed, instead of someone not affiliated with Toei making sweeping decisions and changing everything?

3) Don't forget that most of the people who got into tokusatsu, owe it to such "bastardized" shows for getting them interested in the first place. Whether TVN and other fansub groups choose to admit it or not, most of their user base (and donaters) got here thanks to such shows as Power Rangers, Beetleborgs, Superhuman Samurai Syber Squad, and VR Troopers. And you may say that Dragon Knight was a "bastardized" show, but those of us who actually followed it, and who know some of the history of the Wang brothers who wrote for it, know that is far more a homage to Kamen Rider than a "bastardized" version.

I get really sick and tired of seeing this all the time. It's just plain NOT TRUE. How many times has Tokyo Dogs been "Americanized" (it's airing now FYI)? Mister Brain? Or what about TV Nihon's own Densha Otoko? Or Trick? Sexy Voice and Robo?
You don't give the fanbase enough credit. A great many people would have fallen in love with a wide variety of Japanese shows no matter if they had been shown in America in some form or not. Saying they would never have been interested in them without Power Rangers is shortsighted and highly speculative while ignoring clear and easily seen facts. A vast number of series from Japan, China and Korea are fansubbed every minute of every day, some of which are done by high quality and accurate sub teams like TV Nihon, and very VERY few of the shows being subbed have ever been "Americanized" in any way shape or form. It's a silly argument and it is employed by people that refuse to see the bigger picture.

Dragon Knight does not belittle Ryuki in any way, and everyone who flames Dragon Knight acts like it did.

I never said it did. I said it is an insult to the American fanbase to act like they would not have been able to understand, appreciate or enjoy Ryuki in it's original form without even letting them try it first. It's like saying that Japanese children in a certain age bracket are more able to understand and enjoy than American children in the same age group. Having gone to Japan a number of times, and had younger American children with me on a couple of those trips, I can tell you it's untrue. Even with an adult having to explain to them what was going on (because they understood no Japanese and needed a translator) I know that American children are able to understand and enjoy more than apparently some folks give credit. And having been one of those same children when I fell in love with Skyrider (I did not understand a word of it, but it was the single coolest thing I have ever seen in all of my... single digit... years...) I know it's another silly and pointless argument.

Also, you can't say that a direct translation of the original shows would be a great "Americanization" because that completely goes against the definition of the word. You cannot have a direct translation of a show in Japan to show to American children. Adults yes, children no. And not just because the regulations are different, but because the cultural points and references are different to. And if you're going to have to rewrite the cultural references, you might as well rewrite the show.

And here is the crux of the disagreement. I think children are alot more able to cope than you think. I know how many of those "too young to understand it all" love Final Fantasy and can tell you every detail about their favorite(s) in the series. I will agree that dubbing is horrible for live action, and using American actors might be more appealing... but WHY THE HELL can they not use the original story as much as possible? I mean, if they are actual fans that love the story, why not give that story a chance to be seen in America, using American actors and changing as little as possible? This is much the same as the rationale behind the Final Fantasy titles, and they sell extremely well, and largely remain faithful to the originals. I mean... what is the worst thing that could happen? The series bomb and not even get to air it's final episodes?

I don't want alot of flaming or anger about this. I am just trying to get the Dragon Knight fans to see both sides. Alot of us that were not very keen on KR:DK did see some strengths to the show, and some things they did right. But alot of us think that the story from Ryuki should have at LEAST gotten a chance instead of someone just deciding they knew better than Toei. *shrug* Like any other opinion, there will be those that differ and even violently disagree. I just wanted both sides clearly seen and understood.

The people that handle import/export of media in both countries are pretty clueless about what they do for a living anyway. The Batman Animated Series from the 90's was deemed "Far too violent" for export to Japan. Looking at the series I love from Japan, that seems as stupid as hell to me. The Japanese version of "No More Heroes" for Wii has no blood spewing on kills, only coins because it was "too graphic" for the Japanese. Yet DragonBall Z had to be "toned down on violence" for Americans because they felt the US would not accept the violence, and metric shitloads of violent Japanese games have been altered to be more "friendly" before they were released in America over the years, and it always results in one version being deemed "better" or "more fun" than another. This is why companies like Square try to keep their translations as true to the original as possible. And ideally, I think that is the mentality every media distributor should try to follow, because it is the only way to ensure the quality and enjoyment is as close to universal as possible.

... I mean... you cannot tell me it does not work for Square.