Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by takenoko »

>Why should it?

Because that's the difference between writing a good story and pulling something out of your ass. They've done nothing to connect the two things.

Your example for Garo season one doesn't work because there are a ton of connections. Ryuuzaki was using Kaoru as a sacrifice for Messiah. We see her meet with him on multiple occasions. So when Ryuuzaki is revealed to be Barago, there's some substance there. There's nothing like that here.

Sorry man, you can argue around it all you want, but the story telling is bad. If you like it, that's cool but stop badgering me about my opinion. I like Makai no Hana, but it's not a fucking sacred cow. It's okay to criticize things that you like.

Edit:
While in the shower I thought of more reasons why this story sucks.

First, a good story is like a building. It's a structure that's built up and requires a solid foundation.

If this were a good story, they'd build supports. Like have something about Eiris being able to manipulate time. Or maybe something cluing Raiga in that Eiris has his parents.

Speaking of which, Raiga's a hero right? He has two quests. Defeat Eiris and save his parents (With maybe protecting Mayuri as a tertiary goal). But in this entire series, he hasn't done a thing to save his parents. And now, through no effort of his own, he has a chance to save them by defeating Eiris.

It's not hard to set things up. If you want to be lazy with the story, sure, in kid's shows they handwave it because kids don't think that deeply about stuff. But this is a show for adults. I just pulled these ideas out in half an hour. But since this story has none of these structures, it collapses on its non-existance support structures into the smoking hot mess that it is. It has the stink of being pulled out of the ass because that's how the story was laid out to the viewer.
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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by Dragonfan »

Ok, so I suppose that Arthur Conan Doyle, Tolkien or Joseph Michael Straczynski suck at telling a story, because they do plot twists and surprises before hinting them previously, not fitting your requirements of what is a good story.

And I've never badgered you about your opinion, as I told you previously and I don't fine Makai no hana as a secret cow, as I criticized it previously (in this exact thread, BTW). You can opine whatever you like. What I found wrong is taking the "You have to connect two events previously for a story to be good" as an axiom, which is not, an criticize if the show doesn't accomplish that.

It's like talking about if we like Garo's armor or not. We can argue about the design, the quality, etc... And some people may like or not. But if someone says "The armor is ugly because is not purple, and armors have to be purple. If not, they are not good armors", then that's nonsense.
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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by abazigal »

takenoko wrote:>Why should it?

Because that's the difference between writing a good story and pulling something out of your ass. They've done nothing to connect the two things.

Your example for Garo season one doesn't work because there are a ton of connections. Ryuuzaki was using Kaoru as a sacrifice for Messiah. We see her meet with him on multiple occasions. So when Ryuuzaki is revealed to be Barago, there's some substance there. There's nothing like that here.

Sorry man, you can argue around it all you want, but the story telling is bad. If you like it, that's cool but stop badgering me about my opinion. I like Makai no Hana, but it's not a fucking sacred cow. It's okay to criticize things that you like.

Edit:
While in the shower I thought of more reasons why this story sucks.

First, a good story is like a building. It's a structure that's built up and requires a solid foundation.

If this were a good story, they'd build supports. Like have something about Eiris being able to manipulate time. Or maybe something cluing Raiga in that Eiris has his parents.

Speaking of which, Raiga's a hero right? He has two quests. Defeat Eiris and save his parents (With maybe protecting Mayuri as a tertiary goal). But in this entire series, he hasn't done a thing to save his parents. And now, through no effort of his own, he has a chance to save them by defeating Eiris.

It's not hard to set things up. If you want to be lazy with the story, sure, in kid's shows they handwave it because kids don't think that deeply about stuff. But this is a show for adults. I just pulled these ideas out in half an hour. But since this story has none of these structures, it collapses on its non-existance support structures into the smoking hot mess that it is. It has the stink of being pulled out of the ass because that's how the story was laid out to the viewer.
Well, for one, nobody really knows where Kouga and Kaoru are. So it's not that Raiga isn't trying to rescue them, it's more that he doesn't even know where to start!

I still have a hard time linking the disappearance of Raiga's parents to Elris. Wasn't Elris supposed to be sealed already? Unless you are saying that it was a future Elris (whom we assumed had already been unsealed) who opened a wormhole in Raiga's past and abducted his parents, leading to the present turn of events. Which seems like a recursive time loop of sorts.

I don't think everything has to be set up that nicely. In fact, tie everything up too nicely, and the whole thing just seems rigged. It has always been standard Garo fare to leave the unveiling of the end Horror boss to the last 2 episodes. I like the design of Elris. Leave it to Japan to create awesome looking villains, although the use of green-screen technology was way too blatant.

I somehow doubt that we are going to see the return of Kouga and Kaoru. I don't see what role they would play. IMO, it would be better to just leave their fate ambiguous. Maybe have a one-liner that Raiga will continue to search for them (even though we know there is virtually no chance of them returning?).

Last thing - was I the only one who thought (for a moment) that Elris was going to drain the gold essence out of Garo armour, thus leading to the black Garo we see in Yami no Terasu? :P
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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by takenoko »

Dude Dragonfan, it's incredibly hard to take you seriously when your spelling is the way it is. I don't think you know the difference between a plot twist and just bad story telling. This would be no different than Aladdin if the story ended with him wishing to marry the princess after finding the Genie. You jump straight to the happy ending with no arc for the hero.

Not everything has to be set up nicely, but the problem here is there is no set up. It's just pulled out of the ass in order to cram Kouga and Kaoru back into the storyline. Like it needs something to smooth out that transition, otherwise it just comes off as abrupt and fake.
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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by Fat D »

Personally, the most recognizable moment for me was the return of Savior in the Dark when he told Crow about the motivation behind his kindness. I could not help but wonder if a scene actually featuring Kouga would have been a better moment to play that card, though.
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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by Dragonfan »

takenoko wrote:Dude Dragonfan, it's incredibly hard to take you seriously when your spelling is the way it is. I don't think you know the difference between a plot twist and just bad story telling. This would be no different than Aladdin if the story ended with him wishing to marry the princess after finding the Genie. You jump straight to the happy ending with no arc for the hero.

Not everything has to be set up nicely, but the problem here is there is no set up. It's just pulled out of the ass in order to cram Kouga and Kaoru back into the storyline. Like it needs something to smooth out that transition, otherwise it just comes off as abrupt and fake.
And what I'm saying is that the foreshadowing is an option, not an imperative. The example of Conan Doyle was precise because (Sherlock Holmes spoilers, just in case XD):

Spoiler
Moriarty appears, he is the arch enemy of Sherlock and the mastermind behind several crimes before. Buuut that wasn't said before. You would label it as "pulled out of the ass". And in twenty pages more or less, he appears, reveals his intentions, fights Sherlock and "both die". And this thing is considered a masterpiece and Doyle was even awarded with the title of Sir. But, if we judge this story like you would, it doesn't fit your standard and it would be labeled as "bad story telling".


And with the "You jump straight to the happy ending with no arc for the hero" I think you are forgetting that the structure of this show is made of stand alone episodes. So yes, there is no arc, because this kind of shows normally doesn't have them.

So, as I previously said, I'm not belittling anyone's opinion, my intention is far from that, and I actually agree with you in some aspects. What I'm trying to say is that foreshadowing is just an option that a author could use or not, and the viewer would judge if they like the way the story was told or not, but is not mandatory, and the absence of foreshadowing doesn't make a storytelling automatically and objectively wrong.

P.S: Is there something wrong with my spelling? I'm not native English so maybe I am expressing myself in a way that is not appropiate or committing some spelling mistakes and I'm not noticing it. So, if that is the case, I would appreciate if you could tell me where is the problem so I could correct it in the future.
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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by Dragg »

I was hoping that the timehole Eiris used to peek through Raiga's past was the same warphole that sucked in Kaoru and Kouga. XD
It would be an awkward reunion, but it would be a good opportunity to have two Garos at once, since Kouga relinquished the title and armor while he was missing, if I recall correctly.
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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by jason3000 »

Is it just me or i feel like this show is going down the hill ?
I just find that garo dark knight chapter is more memorable among the garo series,
I just feel that something missing from garo that make this show great after season 1,
and why in garo their script sometime feel really kiddy,
why cant they make dialoged a bit better,
for example,like from ep 23 ,that stupid moment when crow hit the barrier that part with olva,
this is an adult show,if gaim can done it better at their plot,i dunno why garo cannot?
sorry for my bad english.
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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by takenoko »

Personally, I still like Hana better than Yami. It's not a bad series, it's just a lot of wasted potential. A lot of the guests that you assume are going to be regulars only appear for one or two episodes. It's just not as cohesive as previous seasons.

But I still really like the high points for what they are. Like episode 7 with the callback to Makai Senki was awesome.

The ladies were also pretty great this time around too. I liked Mayuri despite her turning into a moving plot device. Bikuu was awesome in that one episode. Jiiru is a goddess.

A show with really good stuff in a sea of meh is always better to me than a meh show with a lot of stinkers in it. As much as I criticize Makai no Hana, the worst parts of it really aren't that bad.
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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by jason3000 »

Season 1 is still the best,
In my opinion, yami is better than hana somehow,
I know you all hate the cg from yami,but at least it has plot to begin with,new director tried to make it different from the older series,although is still have some issue in their plotline,but it has a lot of potential in this series and can have some improvement.
Makai no hana,nothing creative,just bring back the old things with new design,maybe i complain too much,but come on,if kids show like gaim can have improvement in their plotline among the casual kr series,i dunno why garo as a adult show cannot make it better.
TLDR; garo should have tried to improve in their plotline to make it more mature instead of blood and nipples.
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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by abazigal »

jason3000 wrote:Is it just me or i feel like this show is going down the hill ?
I just find that garo dark knight chapter is more memorable among the garo series,
I just feel that something missing from garo that make this show great after season 1,
and why in garo their script sometime feel really kiddy,
why cant they make dialoged a bit better,
for example,like from ep 23 ,that stupid moment when crow hit the barrier that part with olva,
this is an adult show,if gaim can done it better at their plot,i dunno why garo cannot?
sorry for my bad english.
IMO, the plot of Makai no Hana just meandered on for too long. The subplot of hunting down the 9 slab horrors seemed to serve no real purpose beyond making the show stretch longer than it absolutely needed to. Too many filler episodes as well. Mayuri basically just stands there being helpless in every episode while lamenting that she isn't human. It's like the creators had enough script only for a solid 7-8 episodes but needed to stretch it all the way to 25.

I still like the tighter-paced plot in Yami no Terasu. What I felt was a pity in Yami no Terasu was too little armour time with the knights. Never mind that the 2 supporting knights rarely ever called on their armour even when they were being beaten to within an inch of their life (since Crow hardly ever summons his armour anyways). Even the titular character, Garo, doesn't really use his armour much. When he does, it's usually summon, slash, KO, armour disappears.

Either way, we should have one more episode left, so let's see how it ends. :)
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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by Revorse »

hisakuya wrote: First season, give or take 3 eps before the end.
takenoko wrote:
And yeah, Garo berserk mode appears in the first season.
Yup, I found it. Episode 23.
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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by KR_FIA »

I'm surprised there's less talk about what Crow ranted about early in this episode. When he proclaimed that Mayuri's not human, I expected another "She's just a tool of destruction" when...
Crow: She's a woman
Crow mah boy, what the hell were you implying with that line? Knowing this series' target audience, it could mean a hell lot of thing.

Seriously, I don't think I have been as disappointed with a garo series, but I will wait for the conclusion to come up with a rant myself.
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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by Mandalori »

I think that Crow meant that Raiga didn't saw her just as a human to protect, but rather as a girlfriend. He probably didn't met that much girl of his age because of his job that could understand him and with whom he could built a relationship.

But if that's how they wanted to portray it, they did a better job with Kaoru/Kouga, Ryouga/Rian and Takeru/Rui. Or maybe it has to do with the fact that Mayuri is special because of her being treated as a tool for her everyone's safety, including hers.
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Re: Garo Makai no Hana 24 released

Post by takenoko »

Yeah, there's not a lot of room for interpretation there. I think Crow is saying that he and Raiga are in love with Mayuri, but Raiga is too chivalrous to make a move.
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