Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

For the Riders we have not graced with our touch...yet
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by Bomyne »

takenoko wrote:It's Shinnosuke. It might be easier to remember if it's broken down into parts:
Shin = To go forward (haha, cause cars)
no = The Japanese particle for "of" or that connects two nouns
suke = A common boy's name suffix (Like Daisuke, Keisuke, etc.)
Thanks. Though I suspect I won't remember that, but it does help for now.


When we look at Kamen Rider Gaim, Kouta is not the Rider I'd look as as a blank personality... He was full of drive and determination... and I especially like the episodes relating to Yuuya (I probably got that name wrong...). The guilt over killing him, and the resolve to press on, which resulted in him using Kachidoki Arms.

With regards to that season specifically, Hase and Jounochi (sp?) are the Riders I'd look to as blank personalities... as well as New Generation Rider Marika (the pink one). Kurokage and Gridon seems to me like they were just there for comedy purposes, and discarded afterwards. This is illustrated by how pathetically weak their powers are. Marika didn't seem to have much personality at all. Not when she worked for Ryuoma, not when she worked for Kaito.

The number of people calling Haruto boring confuses me. Kamen Rider Wizard is my favourite KR and the main rider is the reason I liked it. I never considered him to be bland or boring. He was far more interesting than his secondary or Extra Riders.

Are we limiting this discussion to just Kamen Rider? Because a few Sentai Reds fit the Neutral Mask bill too. BoukenRed. ShinkenRed.

I apologize if I got any of the Japanese names wrong.
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by Revorse »

I wouldn't say Haruto is bland it's just that Haruto, and I like Haruto I think he's a strong Rider, was really nothing more than a Rider. If that makes any sense. He was good at saving people and killing Phantoms and that's pretty much all he did for like 40 episodes. Then the plot really started with the White Wizard and Koyomi.
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by Knight of L-sama »

takenoko wrote:I kind of like the definition of Neutral Mask being kind of broad. I hate ultra specific definitions, because then you have people moving the goal post back and forth or "no true Scottsmaning" it.
Yeah but there is such a thing as overly broad use of a term. Go too broad and the term becomes functionally meaningless. And I think in this case you are using it too broadly. A bland characterisation to maximise appeal (or minimise potential offense) and an empty shell for a viewer to project themselves into just aren't the same thing. The first I will grant is a problem that main riders suffer from quite frequently (made worse by the fact that the writers then like to give the secondary riders more off beat personalities to act as foils) but true empty masks are rarer.
takenoko wrote:Main Riders do not like girls. They aren't interested or like them in that way.
Shoutarou would like to object. Within the boundaries of the ratings he like girls that way plenty. He just had absolutely no luck with them.
Revorse wrote: I think he's a strong Rider, was really nothing more than a Rider. If that makes any sense.
It makes sense because it's the problem we're talking about. The character being an empty shell defined only by their role in the plot, it's generally not considered a sign of superior writing.
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by Bomyne »

A personality trait I have noticed with ALL the main riders (At least since W) is that they are all overly trusting and naive. This has been exploited by Meteor and Ryugen....And a few monsters of the day.

The same problem happens with Sentai Reds
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by HarryFA1 »

I honestly find "Neutral Mask", as a term to be too negative, I mean, it essentially says that "this character has little to no personality" or "this character is bland & generic". And since a majority of my favourite characters have been "Neutral Masks" (Godai, Shinji, Takumi, Kenzaki, Kagami, Shoutarou, Kouta), I just can't agree. Do they tend to share similar traits? Yes. Is the audience meant to be able to relate & identify with them? Yes. Does this make them all the same? No. Does this automatically make them poor or lesser characters? No.
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by Dynaman777 »

This was a really interesting topic to come across when I randomly realized I haven't watched any Toku in 2 weeks and came back! Ha ha ha!

As far as the actual discussion goes, I don't necessarily feel like that it's a bad thing to see oneself in the main rider. It can be a good way to self-reflect and focus on the positives that you have in your character.

However, to say that all main riders are of this template, I personally think is incorrect. For example, I relate to Gentarou from Fourze and Shinnosuke from Drive more than the other main riders. Haruto from Wizard, Shotaro from W, and Ryotaro from Den-O all have good qualities as far as characters go, but I can't really feel like I relate to them as well. This is why I feel like grouping all the main riders together as this can't be 100% correct. However, this is just my opinion! :)
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by Lunagel »

Neutral mask I think tends to come more under the games heading, especially with games where you can choose your own character gender/design. Something that doesn't impact the story and is deliberately left out so people will project themselves onto the character. With movies/tv, you really can't have too much of a neutral mask or else the character is unlikeable and uninteresting. I think all of the Riders have had very different personalities and are notably distinct, so there's not really much basis for calling them masks. They wear masks, sure, but that's not what they are.
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by HyouRetsuzan »

now that you guys brings this issue up, i had a moment of thinking and realizing, that neo heisei's main rider are in this stereotype. i dont know if they are intended that way because toei wants KR to gain more attention from kids or what... but take a look on the series so far

W - had 2 protagonists, 2 episodes for case solving, philip is the true main while shotaro acts as the side kick (story revolves around philip)
OOO - seriously, eiji is only ankh's pet, there is no REAL story for eiji and he is there only for kicking greeed's butt
4ze - same case as OOO only this time gentarou fight side by side with KR club BUT still there is no story for gen
Wiz - do i have to repeat again ? the story begin to starts involve haruto when he got infinity
gaim - havent watch this one but from what i read from people's post, this one is less boring since it got many chars and the story got many POV of many chars

and drive - lol seriously, what makes me hyped to watch this, its because of chase (will he become a rider or not) and this time is Go's, what really drives him to hate roidmude so much or in this case, chase maybe ? i didnt remember him get so worked up when kyuu got a roidmude double

well to make it simple,
W = shotaro is sidekick and philip is the main
OOO = eiji is sidekick and ankh is M
4ze = gen is S and kengo is M
Wiz = haruto is S and koyomi is M

TL;DR , the story for the main rider begins at final arc with the exception of OOO and 4ze, while Wiz starts at mid series the time he got infinity. please be noted, my review are only for the story flow, not for how the characters growth during the series
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by takenoko »

I think too many people are assuming Neutral Mask is a negative criticism of the character. And while it is, sort of, I'm just using it as a stereotype or trope, because those things are interesting. People like patterns in stuff! They help us see the world in a new way.

To be completely fair, it's not like characters in these shows are generally all that deep or have that many interesting things going on to begin with. I remember pointing it out in Gaim when Mai burst into tears. That's a natural, human reaction to something, because their world is turning into a shitty place and actual bad things are happening to them. Compare this to Drive's maybe burst of anger once in a while or Haruto's total lack of emotion even when he is in despair. (Really, Haruto's face is a neutral mask, I don't think I've ever seen an emotion on it).

Not that I dislike Tomari for being an example of a Neutral Mask. It's just interesting that he is one when compared to something Gaim, which a lot of us loved and ranted over. I just think it says something about the story telling in these shows that might be worth looking at. Or maybe not, I'll still watch it. I have for years already, and probably will for years to come.
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by HyouRetsuzan »

oh wait... so by being neutral mask means that the (main) character expression stays the same in each scene or moment even when that moment supposed to be sad or show anger ? well... if so i totally misunderstood it
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by takenoko »

Not necessarily. In the video I posted, they said Luke was a neutral mask, and he has the big "Nooo" scene which definitely has emotion. I'm just using it to describe the bland hero who acts as the avatar for the audience, when compared to their more interesting side characters. Like either the plot isn't really about them, or they don't have as much personality as the people around them.
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by Harlequin »

In a word? No.

This video is less than useless because Cracked mistakes a narrative need for an audience surrogate as the object of identification.

Let's try to break this down a little.

Cracked defines the "neutral mask" as an avatar for the audience to insert their experience, and cites several successful movies with unemotional protagonists - as well as protagonists literally wearing masks - as these avatars. The sticking point seems to be audience identification and relation.

It is wrong because of two reasons.

First, these movies are not successful because of neutral-mask protagonists. These movies are successful because of cultural forces, good marketing, and immense amounts of money put towards creating vivid spectacle. I knew Transformers was going to be awful, but I went to see it anyway, because I wanted to see the spectacle.

Second, the secret to relating to a character is that the character just needs ONE THING for the audience to latch on to. As a member of the viewing audience, I've related to a lifeless training robot, a giant reptilian monster born of radioactivity, a living chair, a talking lantern, sentient fish, and so on. I can also - GASP! - relate to characters that are not of the same ethnicity as me. It's easy. I can insert myself into any of these experiences, so long as I have had a similar experience as a reference point. And in their own way, they're all very expressive, emotional characters.

Now, a lot of these movies have a fantastical element. Fantastical elements that need to be explained. And this is what I mean by "a narrative need for an audience surrogate." Often times, a protagonist role will be coupled that with the role of the audience surrogate, so that things can be explained as the protagonist goes through their arc. This is not an absolute, nor is it always required: the Makai Knights are absolutely the protagonists of their series, but they don't need things explained to them.

The presence of a mask does not mean a character is unemotional or unexpressive. When you're watching Spider-Man, it's not seeing the masked web-slinger that drives the movie, it's seeing Peter Parker reacting to his surroundings that do. Iron Man would not be as successful as it was without the naturalistic, expressive, charismatic-yet-frustrating performance of Robert Downey Jr. And let's not forget one of the last shots of The Avengers, that contrives reasons to remove the masks of every face-covered hero so they can all face a battered Loki with their bare faces.

An insertion-oriented protagonist is also not always the best choice. Look at Jackie Chan movies, where the whole conceit is the cartoon character nature of Jackie, who suffers pain and suffering in funny ways. We're not as expressive as that. We'll never be that expressive. But we love those movies anyway.

Takeneko defines a "neutral mask" as a protagonist who is not as interesting as the other side characters, and says that it's a common trend in Kamen Rider. I'll dispute that also, but first I'll give a little theoretical background.

Now, there are two approaches to do a superhero, disregarding their status as power fantasies (that's a given). First, superheroes are meant to be emulated, and a prime example is Superman, who is a bastion of compassion and understanding.

Second, superheroes are meant to be relatable to their target audience. The obvious example is Spider-Man, who was conceived for this very purpose to appeal to high school students that had trouble managing their time.

All superheroes combine these two approaches in some way. Superman is relatable because of his social anxieties, while Spider-Man's tenacity and will to survive is clearly something to emulate.

W's protagonists are equally Shotaro and Philip: Shotaro's arc is about him reconciling his self-image with the person he actually is, and Philip's arc was about him making a decision regarding family and his memories, and both were very expressive, very emotional characters with multiple facets. Ryu's arc was a simplistic one by comparison, even if it was very well-acted.

Interest is also heavily subjective: when I see Eiji, I react with fascination, because I wonder what makes a person sway towards martyrdom, and the series gave me a decent answer. For me, Date and Gotou were not as interesting characters, although they were very charismatic ones.

Which leads me to my next point: sometimes the main character isn't supposed to be a main character. Take Fourze: Gentarou doesn't have an arc. What he does have is a gravity of friendship, that the side characters orbit. And that's ultimately what the series is: an examination of how people deal with friendship, how they might twist it, pervert it, or shun it.

Also there's actually just no emotional core of Wizard. It's terrible. Let's move on.

Kouta, like Spider-Man, is very clearly meant to appeal directly to the experiences of the intended demographic. He has difficulties balancing responsibility with fun, and with holding down a job. But he also suffers a slow process of dehumanization, which is hardly an uninteresting development. Kouta is also the character with the most agency, and makes many major decisions in the story.

The intended demographic protagonist shows up again in Tomari, who balances disinterest with responsibility. I do agree that he's less interesting than the other Riders.

By my count, at least with the neo-Heisei series (which are the only ones I have consistently sat through), the count of "neutral mask main riders" is four of seven by what I believe to be other peoples' standards, and three of seven by my own. But that's only seven series so far, so it's too early to call it a trend.

I'll also briefly cover the other Heisei series that I have watched: Kuuga doesn't count for obvious reasons, Ryuki is an audience surrogate but not meant to be the protagonist, Hibiki was never meant to be the protagonist, others have pointed out that Kabuto is a power fantasy with little agency, Kiva is a passive protagonist but not a relatable one and the passivity is meant to be interesting but comes off just as frustrating, and nobody likes Decade.
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by Go-On Macaroni »

I'm just gonna assume that no one's mentioned Shouichi (Agito) yet 'cause he's just that awesome and everyone can relate to him.
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by takenoko »

Definitely not. Shouichi is bursting with personality and eccentricity. He has a ton of emotional scenes and is a definite stand out among other Heisei Riders. Other Rider series can try to duplicate the spark that was Agito, but few if any have succeeded.
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Re: Is the main Rider just a Neutral Mask?

Post by Kogashi »

I would assume Shouichi leans closest to a Neutral Mask due to his amnesia
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