Is the swordsmen infighting this year's job wars?

[takenoko]

n Saber, it just feel like someone started a schoolyard rumor about someone, then the kids walk up to them to say "You're not my friend anymore".

Not only is it just a rumor, it's so blatantly untrue. Do you think these numbnuts would fall for it if they were told that Touma was a cannibal? "I've never seen him eat a man... yet"

[Dante ShadowRoadz]

It's like I said before, they showed Ghost's writer the Sentai formula for the first time ever but told him to make it fit to Kamen Rider anyways. The fact that Ghost was ranked as the biggest mess of highs and lows in all of Heisei was a glaring neon warning sign that Saber wasn't in good hands.

All of it feels like wasted potential pushed through to get the toy sales going. They even gave a secondary Rider his own super form (Anyone even remember King Dai Senki? No? Just me?) for all of a single episode to shill the gauntlet toy for it and its had no use or plot relevance ever since.

One of the ways I've looked at Kamen Rider especially through the Heisei era was that the seasons tend to vary in how kid-oriented they are. Some are more blatant, like Den-O and Ex-Aid, but others like Kabuto and Kiva strike on more mature themes for the slightly older kids to start thinking about. And you have some that fall in the middle, like Drive and Gaim that strike a balance between mature and kid-friendly that still manage to make it work. A hallmark I noticed very early on was how Kamen Rider wasn't afraid to have the heroes fail, or for civilians to die in the crossfire rather than just incidental property damage being the only real consequence of things like in Power Rangers. But that stuff works when the writing works, and here none of the writing works for any of the characters except the comedic relief.

[takenoko]

But the sentai formula doesn't work in most Rider stuff, because at least in (good) Sentai, you get a focus on the different characters. Here, the focus never really leaves Touma

You can't split the best friend gang to the Southern Base and have Rintarou have a two-sentence conversation with Touma for the first time in a month and have that be good. Forget any other potential character development the other knights are having. This is like the parts of bad sentai where it's just red and gold/silver hanging out and leaving out all the other rangers for screen time

[Aikawa]

So, I'm gonna jump on this.
Saber feels, bad. the community as a whole is really good at nitpicking things to find reasons to dislike a series. For whatever the reason they decide upon.

I think a problem that I have is that the series seems like it's a kamen rider series trying to adapt too many sentai elements into it. As I watch sentai series, I have much lower expectations for it than for kamen rider series. So, the cut scene transformations, ending credit dance, the monster of the week feel. Those are problems that I have with sentai that Saber has been using. But, more I find the characters doing a fair amount of out of character things. (Zi-o had that problem a bit as well) it makes sense for Kenzan and Blades to just listen to South base, but it doesn't make sense for Slash and Buster to just go ahead with it. They also know where Saber is, if they really cared about getting the sword of flame and the rest of his ridebooks, then, they could easily. But they don't, they sulk and brood, and send members out one at a time, like a sentai villain (to be fair that's fairly common for sentai and kamen rider villains, send out one enemy at a time). Several of the characters feel more like caricatures of characters than actual characters that grow.


I'm reminded of the sentai strategy of "everything revolves around the red sentai member."

[Layton13]

Funny enough, I feel a lot now about Zero-One like people feel about Saber, ultimately an exceedingly hollow show.

Saber just gives me something I enjoy in Rider, enjoyable characters. I got a good grasp on the characters, I enjoy their personalities and I want to see where they go, something I did not feel in Zero-One. That show felt like it sacrificed its character writing for a story that wasn't even that good. The first arc has similar problems to Saber but decided that cramming a monster into one week and trying to push lore and episode plot and in my opinion, it flat out didn't work. The two parts ate into each other and ended up undercooked and it left no place for character development. Zero-One's cast in general, beyond a few exceptions, is one of the most paper-thin casts in Rider in my opinion. They're just very surface level and not much beyond that, which really hurt the second arc since it had to do overtime to establish anything beyond the basics about the characters which didn't work with the fast pace of the first arc and just ruins the whole pacing of the show. It honestly feels like a show with no clear goal or vision and everything it touches just ends up half-baked... It honestly feels like a show that is lessened because of the sum of its parts.

And while Saber suffers a lot from similar problems, I still like it. It just has that certain something that makes it more than the sum of its parts. The characters are likable, have all their well-established personalities that drive their action, and that just works so well for me because I get why everyone acts like they do in the second arc. The swordsmen grew up in the guild or offered over 15 years of their life to it. It's their home, they're unflinchingly loyal. Touma is the new guy, a friend, but not above the guild. And when the guild sends a new "commander" and tells you to follow orders, you follow orders. Especially when the guild is your family like Rintaro, or your new friend talks about believing in the guy who killed the guy you idolized.

It feels like the show has a heart to it. and wile Zero-One is better on a technical level with dialog and the like, it ultimately ends up being an exceedingly hollow show where characters do what the plot demands because the writers seemingly didn't care to tell a story about them, but just a story.

...Ok, this kinda turned into a "Why I can't stand Zero-One" instead of a "Why I'm enjoying Saber"...

[MobileCoffin]

Isn't the reason they distrust touma is at least believable, who would they trust between the organization they fight for for years (in case of rintarou and ren they grow up there), or a new guy that they fight with for a few month, with a given reason he will walk the same path as the 2 traitor (touma also have the same reasoning as the last traitor, he sympathize with a traitor and he have a great power), when he was asked peacefully he won't give his wonder book and driver and believes there are traitor in the LOS (which makes it more suspicious) which enrage ren who is very close so kentarou who recently "died" and ren can't see nuance (he only see world as black and white) who forces touma to transform and defend himself (the younger member really can't be reason with, one is cult loyal to LOS, one is so hot headed and loyal to LOS. They both won't listen especially now because touma have no concrete proof), it also show how strong the influence of SOL on the member, the older member (Ryo and daisinji) became suspicious and try to investigate personally and try to control/calm the younger member (rintarou and ren) so they don't disturb the megid cleansing like what ren doing in episode 19, especially after the sword of light himself said LOS are corrupt, which rintarou ignore because he won't believe the organization that give him a home and purpose, and the place he is fighting with his life would lie and manipulate them like that and LOS have a traitor like what touma said, he won't accept it.

[YuushaEX]

this series has just been bad there's been no need for all those riders who have just been bad, mediocre story, and sound effects that are as long as a pole. i understand that they couldn't do as much due to covid. the only interesting thing about this series was calibur and no he's well hope shinobis coming next

[dragon996699]

I think the issue I've had with Saber and with the last few Kamen Rider shows to a lesser extent is that they feel so much like Sentai with rider after rider being introduced in the show.

I'd really like a show with one 1 rider again and maybe...maybe 1 extra introduced halfway through the show.

I know they will never go back to the more simple designs because of toy sales but a nice simplistic design without bright colors would be very visually pleasing as well.

[Ashki]

There's something to be said about how the plot a bit reflects the real world, at least here in America, where people have become reliant on false narratives to the point where they can't even trust their friends or families anymore. Perhaps in that way it feels a bit... poor in writing, but Touma is having to deprogram his friends like they've joined a cult because the whole swordsman lifestyle is pretty cult-like. Touma is an outsider who came in, interpreted things differently, and now has been labeled an enemy. Is the writing particularly smart in handling this subject? That might take more time, but I for one do not feel that the series is doing poorly considering that kind of deprogramming can take a long time.

I feel like this is the real strength of the show, but it's one that definitely tips it a little more on the likeable side. We've had worse shows than Saber, and the fact that they gave us a Kamen Sentai this year AND put Ghost's writer and director in charge should've made it sink immediately.

But then you have the social commentary. One outsider who values friendship and honesty without judgement joins an organisation because they have similar views and he believes these people really do want to make the world a better place. And for a while, they're succeeding. But then they find themselves with no leader figure and the OTHER organisation steps in.

The organisation from the south supposedly has far greater power, but you never actually see it. Their leader claims the newcomer's views of peace and harmony are dangerous and that he really just wants power to enslave others. The group from the north begin believing the false narrative, which twists historical events to suit its needs, and joins the other side. They can FEEL something isn't right but are afraid to to take a stand because of all the power Southern supposedly has and the fact that Northern doesn't have a leader. The outsider is trying to tell them that there's more to the organisation's history and the history of the very world they're trying to protect, but nobody's listening.

And so we get this dance of the hero trying to save people who've been suffering for reasons Southern insists aren't really the problem. Southern has decided it knows what's best for everyone and that it's impossible for people to be Meggido. And with this virtual foreigner saying "no, EVERYONE deserves to be saved and ANYONE can be Meggido under the right circumstances", it's apparent he's dangerous and must be eliminated before he breaks the false narrative.

Meanwhile, the leader of Southern is actively working with the true enemy to ensure their mutual goal of a new world where they reign supreme comes to pass.


Yeah, I think a lot of the writing is pretty terrible, but I do have to give props to the writers for having the balls to give such an accurate mirror of modern America. And considering the biggest problem with the US right now is that the "Southern" side REFUSES to just stop and have a conversation and has been setting brother against brother as a result (and not for the first time in history), the seemingly biggest flaws in the current story arc are actually very on-point.


It still doesn't make me love the show, but it does allow me to like it and hold it well above the likes of Ghost, Drive, and Hibiki.

[Ashki]

I think the issue I've had with Saber and with the last few Kamen Rider shows to a lesser extent is that they feel so much like Sentai with rider after rider being introduced in the show.

I'd really like a show with one 1 rider again and maybe...maybe 1 extra introduced halfway through the show.

I know they will never go back to the more simple designs because of toy sales but a nice simplistic design without bright colors would be very visually pleasing as well.

They can do it if they really wanted to. Amazons pulled it off pretty well, with their parallels to KR Amazon. You had one Rider and he was teamed up with a MotW who switched sides (they even based the Amazons character off of his original counterpart). Amazons technically had three riders, with one being a rogue and one being a villain. This is actually not far off from V3, where you had Ichigo and Niigo sacrifice themselves in the beginning and V3 running around for much of the series on his own. He had one enemy Rider (Riderman). As the series progresses,. Riderman redeems himself and Ichigo and Niigo return, ending the show with a cast of four hero Riders. So multiple Riders isn't actually a "new" concept starting in Heisei.

I think Agito did it best, however, with their tribute to the three Rider types - the traditional cyborg of Showa TV, the mutants of the Showa movie era, and the mystical we saw in the movies and Kuuga. Each character had his own arc and those stories DID intertwine, but you rarely saw the three riders fighting together. In fact, it was usually "MotW shows up, mobile team respond, suit up, and get their buttss handed back to them, then Agito shows up and defeats the baddie". And the whole story revolved around a brilliantly deep mystrery plot that arguably hasn't been matched since.

Either give us an adult "standalone" show like Amazons where you have one Rider and possibly a second shows up much later, or give us a small cast like in Agito where each Rider has a completely fleshed out story and episodes bounce between them with only occasional team-ups or run-ins with each other. Both of these formulas work, and they work well.

[PHurricane]

For me, I think the problem with Saber is that it’s the whole package...of failures. There’s flaws in every series, but there’s usually something that grips me and keeps me coming back. For shows that have a weaker story, it may be all, part or even a single member of the cast that keeps me tuning in. Conversely, if the characters are bland or even annoying, I may grit my teeth and bear with them to see how a plot beat unfolds.

There is not a single character in Saber that I like, which is horrifying given how large the cast is. (I almost thought Yuuri might be the hook I needed to get invested, but he’s pulled the “Of course I can solve all your problems, but you didn’t ask me to” card too many times since his intro. He's either a creep or nothing more than a deus ex machina in human-ish form they can use when it's time to switch MotWs. I'm leaning toward the latter.) The plot feels like someone wrote the outline for the series and forgot to add in the details before handing the scripts over to be filmed. I might see where it has potential...but only in my imagination, not on the screen. Since I'm not invested, I'm not even bothering to imagine anything.

About the only thing left is music and the choreography/special effects. The OP is nice, but I hate the ED and the soundtrack is forgettable, so music is a wash. By the time they get to the fight scenes, I’ve either mentally tuned out or I’m too angry at the reason for the fight to care what it looks like. Similar problems with the special effects - transformation scenes are too long and the CGI is distracting rather than complimentary.

I guess there's also setting. It's primarily Tokyo, same as every other series. The Bases are just rooms, nothing exciting there. The land of the master book or whatever they're fighting over is called...from what we've seen of it, it's just a hodgepodge of CGI. That might have been a rare example where they could have gotten better mileage out of telling, not showing.

One last note - I’ve heard the “it’s nothing but a 30 minute toy commercial” complaint for years now and have never put much stock into it. There’s nothing wrong with using the show to market products, even to children. It’s the failure of everything around it that risks dooming even that purpose if the target audience (or their parents) stop tuning in too.

[dragon996699]

I think the issue I've had with Saber and with the last few Kamen Rider shows to a lesser extent is that they feel so much like Sentai with rider after rider being introduced in the show.

I'd really like a show with one 1 rider again and maybe...maybe 1 extra introduced halfway through the show.

I know they will never go back to the more simple designs because of toy sales but a nice simplistic design without bright colors would be very visually pleasing as well.

They can do it if they really wanted to. Amazons pulled it off pretty well, with their parallels to KR Amazon. You had one Rider and he was teamed up with a MotW who switched sides (they even based the Amazons character off of his original counterpart). Amazons technically had three riders, with one being a rogue and one being a villain. This is actually not far off from V3, where you had Ichigo and Niigo sacrifice themselves in the beginning and V3 running around for much of the series on his own. He had one enemy Rider (Riderman). As the series progresses,. Riderman redeems himself and Ichigo and Niigo return, ending the show with a cast of four hero Riders. So multiple Riders isn't actually a "new" concept starting in Heisei.

I think Agito did it best, however, with their tribute to the three Rider types - the traditional cyborg of Showa TV, the mutants of the Showa movie era, and the mystical we saw in the movies and Kuuga. Each character had his own arc and those stories DID intertwine, but you rarely saw the three riders fighting together. In fact, it was usually "MotW shows up, mobile team respond, suit up, and get their buttss handed back to them, then Agito shows up and defeats the baddie". And the whole story revolved around a brilliantly deep mystrery plot that arguably hasn't been matched since.

Either give us an adult "standalone" show like Amazons where you have one Rider and possibly a second shows up much later, or give us a small cast like in Agito where each Rider has a completely fleshed out story and episodes bounce between them with only occasional team-ups or run-ins with each other. Both of these formulas work, and they work well.

I don't need for the show to be "adult" like Amazons but that was definitely the show I enjoyed the most in the past 10 years. It's funny how you brought up Kuuga and Agito, those shows are 20 years old at this point so expecting something like that is out of the question with their current showrunners. I think the closest style we could have again would be W, which kinda had what I want now, a show with simple suits and only 1-2 riders in the show.

[takenoko]

Great write-up Phurricane! Really enjoyed reading it

[Dengar]

One last note - I’ve heard the “it’s nothing but a 30 minute toy commercial” complaint for years now and have never put much stock into it. There’s nothing wrong with using the show to market products, even to children. It’s the failure of everything around it that risks dooming even that purpose if the target audience (or their parents) stop tuning in too.

The problem isn't so much that the show is selling toys.

The problem is that it feels like the show is selling toys, and nothing else.

[takenoko]

That's what she said?