DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Put on your glasses and look at reality
Forum rules
Image

DonBrothers Wiki Link

< Zenkai | Avatarou Sentai DonBrothers | King-Ohger >

Spoiler rules: No posting information about unreleased stuff. Preview and movie promo discussion must be in marked spoiler tags.

Ratings

Poll ended at Sun May 21, 2023 11:50 pm

☆☆☆☆☆ Don to Happy End
16
59%
☆☆☆☆ Sonoshi?
4
15%
☆☆☆ Sonoza?
1
4%
☆☆ Sononi?
4
15%
☆ Sonoi
2
7%
 
Total votes: 27
ViRGE
Save the life
Posts: 2675
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:35 pm

Re: DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Post by ViRGE »

Boy, where do I even begin with DonBrothers?

I was going to write a long diatribe about how much of a mess this series is. But frankly, I'm not sure I can top Lunagel here. She's done such a good job outlining the many (many) failings of the series. Ultimately the whole thing feels like it was ad libbed, or since the source of its woes was the writing, perhaps I should say mad libbed.

What worked for the series was the characters. They lined up a capable cast to portray them, and while the plot couldn't follow a thread over multiple weeks to save its life, the characters were given plenty to do. They often didn't have arcs, but for characters that aren't Jirou, they usually had something interesting to do.

And I appreciate that, in rare exception to Sentai norms, this wasn't a Red-centric series. He was an outright Gary Stu from start to end (even Lucky/KyuuRed didn't get to go that far overboard), but when it wasn't an ensemble story, it was Haruka's story. Sentai so often gets stuck on Red and making Red's story and the series' main plot thread one and the same, that it's refreshing that Red isn't actually the most important person driving the plot forward.

Also, can I spend a moment gushing over how much I love the fact that all the main characters are face actors? Coming from Zenkaiger and its lack of humans, this is a night-and-day difference. Having actors who can properly emote massively elevates the characters. It's the difference between being a soulless catch-phrase machine and someone the audience can empathize with. 9 regulars (plus 2 recurrings) was probably overdoing it from a production standpoint (it makes it hard to give each a correct amount of focus), but it pays off with each character having a range that just can't be matched with suited characters.

But that's about as much as I can say about the series that was nice. There's just no way to sugar-coat this: Inoue embraced chaos writing for this series, and as a result far too many things went unexplained or were never developed properly. Sure, it was enthralling on a week-by-week basis because we never knew what was going to happen next (and, it would seem, neither did Inoue). But when you look at the series as a whole, it's never going anywhere.

Worse, it felt like half the time the fighting didn't matter. The fights rarely advanced the plot itself, especially after the first dozen or so episodes. Rather the fights are what broke up the drama/comedy acts for the rest of the show. The MOTWs being the embodiment of desire could have made for some very interesting stories. Instead they were shoved out of the picture so quickly that half the time we never got a good look at them; they're just a blur of vaguely themed designs, especially as we got deeper in the show. And don't even get me started on the giant robot fights; I don't know what Toei was trying to do, but those were a failure at every level, from choreography to writing.

Meanwhile Jirou belongs in a special awards class all of his own. Never have we had a 6th ranger that was so underbaked. I could name worse 6ths (e.g. Jyuohger's TheWorld/Gold), but you'll be hard pressed to name one that had less to do. He does technically have an arc, but because it was so poorly handled it ends up being a source of frustration rather than a source of entertainment. He really didn't fit into Inoue's plans, and it shows. Though I suspect Toei/Bandai can shoulder some of the blame, as well. Riddle me this: why was the ranger silver, but the tiger purple?

There are a ludicrous number of plot threads that are either incomplete or just never explained. I should probably try to list them all here for posterity's sake, but I'll save that for another time to keep this post from running long.

Ultimately, there is not a single episode of this series that I rated below a 3, other than perhaps the clip show. But as a series, I'm rating this as a 2. In small bites the nonsense is great, but as a whole it adds up to less than the sum of its parts.
Lunagel wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:08 pm I went in to this with high hopes and really trying to like the show, but ultimately the bad writing and clear disdain Inoue has for Sentai tropes just left a bad taste in my mouth.
There it is! There is the magic phrase that summarizes all of this in a single word: disdain. This entire series feels like Inoue is grumbling at being assigned to write another toku series. The man clearly wanted to write a light drama/comedy, and he did his damnedest to do so, even though that's not what Super Sentai aims to be. The result is an interesting drama, but a terrible Sentai.

And I don't want to come off as some kind of purist that doesn't want to see the format change/evolve with the times. Sentai has to change to remain relevant, and Toei's writers need the artistic freedom to try new things. But that kind of experimentation is best done on an episode-by-episode basis, not the entire series itself. Inoue was allowed to run right off the rails, and it made for a subpar Sentai.
Aeikozz wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:46 pm i keep forgetting they sell toys off these shows.
And the thing is, the toys are normally more of Bandai's problem, not the viewer's. But when the writing is so unfocused/uncontrolled that there's no real effort being made to provide in-universe explanations for the various power-ups (i.e. toys), it makes the basic 30 minute toy show model fall apart at its seams.

aWhat you get may be a better story in the short run, but excluding Inoue's inability to follow up on a plot thread here, in the long run it makes for an increasingly incoherent story. And ultimately, if the show doesn't move toys, it won't have any reason to exist. And that is a problem for the viewer.
User avatar
takenoko
Team Baron
Team Baron
Posts: 36797
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:33 pm
Gender: Toast
Favorite series: All of them
Alignment: Neutral
My boom: stick
Quote: <Lunagel> That's Toei's dumb fault
Type: ISFJ Protector
Location: Yami ni umare, yami ni kisu
Contact:

Re: DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Post by takenoko »

Let's also rank Inoue's works while we're at it:
https://wiki.tvnihon.com/wiki/Inoue_Toshiki

DonBros, Agito, and Cutie Honey are definitely on the top of the ones I've seen. I hear Jetman is good too

Everything in between feel like his dark and cynical years. Of particular note, Gouraigan was one of the worst things we've ever had the displeasure of working on
ViRGE
Save the life
Posts: 2675
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:35 pm

Re: DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Post by ViRGE »

I've only seen DonBros, Cutie Honey, and Gouraigan. Of the latter, I didn't know PTSD could be a thing for subbing groups until then. :shock:

Cutie Honey could definitely be irreverent at times. But coming off of DonBros, never in a million years could I have connected the two as being by the same writer. Cutie Honey respected that it was a toku, whereas DonBros went through leaps and bounds to separate itself from the genre.
User avatar
Lunagel
Mofu~
Posts: 11232
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:09 am
Favorite series: Magiranger
2nd Favorite Series: Gekiranger
Location: Japan

Re: DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Post by Lunagel »

I liked Kiva but I feel it has a lot of the same issues DonBro has, namely a tendency to suddenly add in things that just seemed like a good idea at the time.

Gouraigan can go jump in a fucking acid pit. I cannot believe that show actually made it to air, what a piece of utter shit. I regret not dropping it like a live coal halfway through.
HowlingSnail
ZAIA Tool
ZAIA Tool
Posts: 1110
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:32 pm
Gender: Male

Re: DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Post by HowlingSnail »

Lunagel wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:37 am Gouraigan can go jump in a fucking acid pit. I cannot believe that show actually made it to air, what a piece of utter shit. I regret not dropping it like a live coal halfway through.
I dropped it when I realised I was literally just skipping through the episodes. All I remember about it is all the nudity.
Seen:
Super Sentai: Fiveman onwards
Kamen Rider: Ichigou-Skyrider, all the Heisei/Reiwa series except the American shows.
Precure: DokiDoki-Go Pri
Metal Heroes: Gavan
Other: Spiderman, Power Rangers
vasyear
7X
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:33 am
Quote: don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining

Re: DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Post by vasyear »

This is this era's Jetman, kept me hooked and I am glad that Tusbassa and Sononi got together,
I was supprised at the levels of darkness Sononi went to to get Tusbassa and how far he went to rescue her and Kijino they got the right actor for him, he seemed demure but infact he was a right creepy little SOB, his smile was so bloody unverving and just plain wrong
User avatar
takenoko
Team Baron
Team Baron
Posts: 36797
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:33 pm
Gender: Toast
Favorite series: All of them
Alignment: Neutral
My boom: stick
Quote: <Lunagel> That's Toei's dumb fault
Type: ISFJ Protector
Location: Yami ni umare, yami ni kisu
Contact:

Forum stats

Post by takenoko »

Average forum rating: 4.17 / 5 stars

Top 5 episodes: Ep 4 (4.71), Ep 49 (4.67), Ep 6 (4.67), Ep 13 (4.6), Ep 12 (4.53)
Lowest 5: Ep 32 (3.29), Ep 26 (3.33), Ep 36 (3.43), Ep 41 (3.57), Ep 39 (3.67)

Raw data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Apparently people really hated the extremely meta episodes lol
User avatar
Blackcondorguy
7X
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:21 am
Favorite series: Kamen Rider 555
2nd Favorite Series: Timeranger
Favorite Band: Dinosaur Jr
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral

Re: DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Post by Blackcondorguy »

vasyear wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:01 pm I am glad that Tusbassa and Sononi got together
I really find it forced, it just seems that Tsubasa turns to her because he couldn't get Natsumi. But it's basically because Natsumi ending up with Tsuyoshi feels awfully rushed and forced. I get what Inoue was aiming for storywise, and it was not uninteresting, but in my opinion he couldn't put it out because there was no narrative set-up. Inoue hardly dealt with Miho's death (we just see Tsuyoshi bummed out for an episode or two, but it has no real dramatic impact in the story). That's the sort of things that makes me think his biggest problem is pacing. The idea is not bad in itself, but it should take time to set it up properly (we get the payoff, but that's about it).
takenoko wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:31 am Let's also rank Inoue's works while we're at it:
https://wiki.tvnihon.com/wiki/Inoue_Toshiki
Damn, I love Jetman (the worst episodes were not written by him), I love 555 except for the lazy ending, Changerion was a lot of fun, Agito was fine, I enjoyed Cutie Honey...Even his Maskman and Liveman episodes are very good ! How can Inoue's tropes bug me so much when I'm so fond of most of his work ? :shock:
User avatar
takenoko
Team Baron
Team Baron
Posts: 36797
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:33 pm
Gender: Toast
Favorite series: All of them
Alignment: Neutral
My boom: stick
Quote: <Lunagel> That's Toei's dumb fault
Type: ISFJ Protector
Location: Yami ni umare, yami ni kisu
Contact:

Re: DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Post by takenoko »

ViRGE
Save the life
Posts: 2675
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:35 pm

Re: DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Post by ViRGE »

Blackcondorguy wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 8:53 am Damn, I love Jetman (the worst episodes were not written by him), I love 555 except for the lazy ending, Changerion was a lot of fun, Agito was fine, I enjoyed Cutie Honey...Even his Maskman and Liveman episodes are very good ! How can Inoue's tropes bug me so much when I'm so fond of most of his work ? :shock:
Inoue's bag of tropes are script spice. A bit of it can punch up a script and bring out the flavor. But too much ruins the dish - and past that, you can't make a dish out of just spices.

He's basically the Japanese equivalent of Steven Moffat.
User avatar
Blackcondorguy
7X
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:21 am
Favorite series: Kamen Rider 555
2nd Favorite Series: Timeranger
Favorite Band: Dinosaur Jr
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral

Re: DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Post by Blackcondorguy »

ViRGE wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:52 pm Inoue's bag of tropes are script spice. A bit of it can punch up a script and bring out the flavor. But too much ruins the dish - and past that, you can't make a dish out of just spices.

He's basically the Japanese equivalent of Steven Moffat.
That's very true !
User avatar
Mxylv
Humongous
Posts: 584
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:50 pm
Favorite series: Ultraman Nexus
2nd Favorite Series: Kamen Rider Gaim
Favorite Actor?: Daisuke Terai
Favorite Band: GaGaalinG
Alignment: Neutral Good
Quote: Where wisdom and valor fail, all that remains is faith. And it can overcome all.
Location: Nebula M-78

Re: DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Post by Mxylv »

(Some spoilers, but I'll keep them as mild as possible; shout-out to my sister for watching as well, which helped me avoid dropping it during the middle slump lol)
I've never actually made it through a Sentai show, so this was new. The show started airing shortly after I finished Gaim, so seeing that another usually-darker writer was making a comedy show asking some strange questions, I decided to jump on.

Before anything else, I feel a need to remove any doubt: this was not Gaim. Gaim virtually made an art form out of shifting into darker territory while keeping the same themes and moral questions throughout and almost never feeling disjointed as a whole, and this... was not that. With that out of the way:

Story
"What?" (That's my actual description of the story.)
Honestly, this is not the show's forte. I definitely appreciate the more Kamen Rider-esque ongoing story focus and parallel plot lines, but all and all it doesn't makes any real sense, nor any real effort to make sense. It's an awfully fun ride and there are some good twists and turns, but it never quite reaches its full potential--kind of like the part in The Great British Bake-Off where the contestants are told the exact ingredients they're supposed to use and end up with results all over the place anyway. I do think it's an enjoyable show, but certainly trying to extract a coherent plot from it is a challenge.

I guess I should talk about the lore here? For such a convoluted story, I like the world we got here, from the sunglasses world and its decidedly non-overused short-range teleportation to the Jyuto world and its backstory. I also liked the four-way Jyuto/Nouto/Hitotsuki/DonBrothers alignment--having more than sides than just good v. evil, as well as having inter-factional conflict, can work wonders to spice up a story, and this show had both in spades.

Characters
Probably another example in which "what?" is a valid summary, but this time in a different direction. Easily over half the main crew seem to have some neurodivergence or another, and while their personalities can be one-note at times, they're also the most fun and interesting characters I've seen in a Sentai team. When Momoi Tarou is written well, he's an good-hearted, autistic-coded [as someone with some experience with that] fellow who cares deeply for others but has a hard enough time expressing it that he can come across as not having empathy at all. When he's not so well written, he's just a jerk and a Gary Stu at the same time, which is kind of impressive once you think about it. Haruka as one of the main characters worked really well for me, with a larger-than-life ego up to the rare task of non-Red focus; I just wish she'd been the central character for more of the show. Tsubasa and Kijino were both excellent, if not without a few weak points (specifically Tsubasa's intelligence springing a leak somewhere in the second half), and Shinnichi just got the short end of the stick. It's alright if you want a character to be detached from the world, but there's no real goal or ambition to the character, so there isn't much for him to do to move the plot forward (ironically, in the same show Kijino does an excellent job deconstructing the one-note personality archetype). I thought I'd find Jirou annoying, but I actually kind of liked him? Granted, he spends a majority of the story doing almost nothing, but he did have something to contribute to the story.

Despite being introduced as possibly more one-note than most of the protagonists, I liked what we ended up getting from the main three Nouto. It's kind of a shame that the show fell into the same trap I felt Kamen Rider Ghost did by running out of interesting villains once the best ones were either redeemed, pushed aside, or otherwise out of the picture, but unlike the latter show, this kept the main Nouto trio as interesting or even more interesting than they'd been in their original story position. (Okay, now I've compared this show to both Gaim and Ghost; very ratio-able, but there we go.)

Theme
This is probably DonBrothers' strong point, although it's almost impossible to tell by how little it has anything to do with the story of Momotaro: ultimately, the show's about stories. When Haruka briefly takes a leave from the DonBrothers, her position is filled by someone with a variant on the same backstory, with the implication that this sort of thing's happened several times before. The rangers' Kibi Points seem to change the story around them like story points in some RPGs. Kaito and some details within the finale almost feel like commentary on Sentai as a franchise, especially its baton-passing tradition. Finally, at least one aspect's backstory turns out to be a literal story. I found that this focus complemented the less realistic angles of the show--after all, who said it was trying to be realistic?

Other
I've heard some things like complaints about the relative lack of mech fights and toy/gimmick uses, but I've gotten kind of tired of shows pushing toys and the mech fights rarely to never did anything for me beyond grinding the story to an unnecessary halt (also ratio-able, to be fair. Ironically, I love Ultraman, but that franchise will usually weave its story into the large-scale battles while keeping its protagonists acrobatic). The CG is an encouraging example to computer artists everywhere that they can create and surpass broadcast-quality animation, but again, the show overall isn't going for realism; I found myself simultaneously warming up to and tiring of the CG's use, with the ranger footage appearing to get a bit better over the season and the mech footage... not.

Overall / tl;dr
I've never watched any significant portion of a Sentai show and thought it was actually good (what can I say? I'm guess I'm feeling ratio-able today). Instead of trying to convince me how Sentai could have a strong entry, DonBrothers (if not without very strong moments) sidesteps the question entirely by constantly putting some of the most bizarre mixtures of tone, aesthetic, and story elements I've seen onto a screen. (Some spoilers, kind of:) If I recall right, at one point an entire episode is played like a comedy except for a minute or so of a ranger's mental breakdown in the middle, which is never brought up again in that episode. Another resolves a major plot point through a time travel/alternate reality story that's hinted at or elaborated on neither before nor after the episode. In a third instance, the plot swaps between romantic drama-thriller and screwball comedy until the comedy story literally hits the drama-thriller one with a car. Flabbergasting an audience into submission is a bit of a brute force maneuver, but hey, it worked for me.

4/5 Definitely flawed, but the positives outweighed the downsides for me
Watching:
Kamen Rider Kuuga, Gotchard

Watched:
KR W, Gaim, Ghost - Build, Geats
Ultraman '66, Leo, Great, Nexus - U7X, Ginga - Blazar
Donbrothers
GS Sho, HwTM, Dogengers S1-4
When in doubt,
Image
User avatar
takenoko
Team Baron
Team Baron
Posts: 36797
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:33 pm
Gender: Toast
Favorite series: All of them
Alignment: Neutral
My boom: stick
Quote: <Lunagel> That's Toei's dumb fault
Type: ISFJ Protector
Location: Yami ni umare, yami ni kisu
Contact:

Re: DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Post by takenoko »

Loved the analysis on the characters. The stuff about Tarou was particularly insightful

One thing that baffles me about people who don't like DOnBros because of the story is because I'm sort of the attitude "Sentai has a story?" When I think back to my favorite sentai series, maybe Go-Busters, Shinkenger, or LVSP has an ongoing story where they go from McGuffin A to McGuffin B down the road till they reach a final boss. Otherwise... I'm here for Sentai to spend some time with characters I like and whatever they're doing this week. People loved the hell out of Gokaiger. But did Gokaiger really have a story? I really liked Kiramager, but I couldn't really tell you what characters were doing from week to week
ViRGE
Save the life
Posts: 2675
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:35 pm

Re: DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Post by ViRGE »

takenoko wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 7:13 pm One thing that baffles me about people who don't like DOnBros because of the story is because I'm sort of the attitude "Sentai has a story?" When I think back to my favorite sentai series, maybe Go-Busters, Shinkenger, or LVSP has an ongoing story where they go from McGuffin A to McGuffin B down the road till they reach a final boss. Otherwise... I'm here for Sentai to spend some time with characters I like and whatever they're doing this week. People loved the hell out of Gokaiger. But did Gokaiger really have a story? I really liked Kiramager, but I couldn't really tell you what characters were doing from week to week
The issue is not serialization (or lack thereof). As you correctly note, episodic Sentais are a very common occurrence as it is. And the good ones are very good about it.

The problem is that DonBros tried to be a serialized series, and then never delivered the goods. For example, an episodic series would explain something like Jirou's multiple personality disorder early on. DonBros instead never explained it, and then brushed over it in the end with a quarter-ass resolution.

Chaos writing is fine so long as you don't set up any long-term plot threads. Once you do, you're making a commitment to the readers to see those threads through.
User avatar
takenoko
Team Baron
Team Baron
Posts: 36797
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:33 pm
Gender: Toast
Favorite series: All of them
Alignment: Neutral
My boom: stick
Quote: <Lunagel> That's Toei's dumb fault
Type: ISFJ Protector
Location: Yami ni umare, yami ni kisu
Contact:

Re: DonBrothers Series Discussion and Poll

Post by takenoko »

Maybe the problem is the way it's set up? It feels like Inoue split the team in two, red, blue, yellow have their funny goofy adventures. While the love triangle series long plot is relegated to mostly pink and black. If we treat the series as the love triangle being the only actual long term plot, that part is doled out over the series and does wrap up pretty neatly

I'm not entirely convinced that even people who liked Jirou would argue he had a story that people were invested in. Same could be said about Murasame or other minor plot holes. The only thing they probably could have done better is connecting Tarou from the start to the end. He does become better about being a team mate and empathetic to the people around him, it's just not the most smooth thing sometimes
Post Reply

Return to “Avatarou Sentai DonBrothers”